In pursuit of high level social dancing

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I think there's some talking past one another going on here. One of the things that I think Chris is saying (please correct me if I'm wrong, Chris), is that there really is no good outlet for a person who wants to be a social dancer to learn to "perfect" the social style. You can take private lessons, but private lessons are usually geared towards producing the type of dancing that wins competitions, not the type of dancing that feels best to one's partner or is easiest to follow. Teachers who primarily teach social dancers tend not to be particularly experienced or skilled themselves (although I can think of one counterexample in the Boston area).

Further, the dance style and technique described in the past by Alex Moore could be a very good social style, because it is attainable by all (not just by athletes, like today's top competitors) and because it is easy to lead and follow. It's not that social dancers should be restricted to a syllabus, but that the principles of alignment, footwork, posture, and body position taught by Moore are particularly well-suited to social dancing that is enjoyable for a leader and follower who do not otherwise have a common dance background.

Yes, that is basically what I was trying to say. Since the assumption that highly developed dancing must be linked to competition is so widespread, it's really rare for anyone to make an in-depth study of dancing for non-competitive purposes. Where it gets really unfortunate is that a fair chunk of the emphasis in competition training, or for that matter showcase preparation, tends to be specifically geared to those uses rather than towards the basic mastery of dancing itself. How much of the push towards competitions or showcases is due to the fact that there's limited opportunity to learn about dancing itself, and even less opportunity to use what you learn, unless you take up one of these supported options?

It seems like the majority of ballroom threads are inclined towards competition. I'm positive that there are quite a few ballroom dancers who, for whatever reason, eschew competition, choosing instead to work on their social dancing. Peaches, wooh, and DennisBeach are a few who come immediately to mind. I think, in theory, perfect competitive dancing would be identical to perfect social dancing. If I recall correctly, Chris Stratton has cited some examples in which the two seemed to dovetail. Yet, with constraints on time, partner, and other things, the demands of the competition and social floors can be at odds with each other. Take a conversation I had with an instructor during class.

Me: "How much more difficult would it be if one were to dance this without any swing?"
Instructor: "Er...whatever possessed you to ask such a question?
Me: "Well, when I'm at a social dance..."

Me: "How feasible would it be to dance this with two feet of separation between partners?"
Instructor: "Um...why the <censored> would you want to... oh, right..."

Anyway, in reality, it is usually the competitive demands that prevail. So, I thought it would be nice to have a thread in which we could discuss (among similar topics):
-Where imperfect competitive and imperfect social dancing diverge
-The skills to focus on in order to develop better social dancing
-The additional skills that would create a well-rounded dancer, bringing social dancing closer to competitive dancing
-How to better use competition-focused resources to further social dancing goals
-How to improve the level of dancing at socials
-Other non-competitive applications of quality dancing

 

[wooh]

Peaches, wooh, and DennisBeach are a few who come immediately to mind.

Well, just have to say I was excited that I immediately came to mind in a thought about dancing.
Will have to ponder the other stuff before I respond.

 

[Laura]

TC, if you want to go social dancing with someone who can and will swing, and who doesn't need 2 feet of separation, and who is familiar with what you've been taught because I've had the same teacher...send me a PM!

 

[Terpsichorean Clod]

TC, if you want to go social dancing with someone who can and will swing, and who doesn't need 2 feet of separation, and who is familiar with what you've been taught because I've had the same teacher...send me a PM!

Ooh, thanks, Laura! :bouncy:

 

[9dncr]

I definitly see that couples who take private lessons in this area are taught in a very technical way and that they take social dancing to a very fun but serious manner. IT is not just about steps but connection and learning how to dance with not only your partner but other dancing friends. I see many couples that are purely social dancers yet could answer any technical question if put on the spot by any high level competitive dancer, no questions asked. Why? because they love what they do and they want to be good at it! You don't have to compete to be a beautiful and solid social dancer. I think that it is wonderful for people who have no intention on competing to take social dancing to the highest level that it can be... Isn't that why people started dancing to begin with? To maintain that is an art in itself! It is rewarding to couples when they understand "forward and slightly side" and can actually follow through with that action and not just say that they have heard it somewhere before.

 

[Laura]

I think that it is wonderful for people who have no intention on competing to take social dancing to the highest level that it can be.

I agree, but unfortunately I've met very few people like that over the years. I heartily encourage such people (hence my invitation to TC).

 

[chocolatchica]

I think, in theory, perfect competitive dancing would be identical to perfect social dancing.

I was just having a conversation with some people at my studio about this and they said that the best competitors at the studio are not the best leads for social dancing. They do figures that are almost impossible to follow unless rehearsed (like for comps) and just have a whole different style that is more comp friendly but less socially friendly. By personal experiance I have foound this to be true I think because social dancers have learned to adapt better to leading different and feeling out different people. The competitors sometimes are so used to dancing with their partner that they lead everyone the same way when everyone isnt like theor competitive. partner. You kinda catch my drift here??? Mind you this isnt the same with every situation this is just what I hahve experianced and heard. I am sure there are exceptions.

 

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I was just having a conversation with some people at my studio about this and they said that the best competitors at the studio are not the best leads for social dancing. They do figures that are almost impossible to follow unless rehearsed (like for comps) and just have a whole different style that is more comp friendly but less socially friendly. By personal experiance I have foound this to be true I think because social dancers have learned to adapt better to leading different and feeling out different people. The competitors sometimes are so used to dancing with their partner that they lead everyone the same way when everyone isnt like theor competitive. partner. You kinda catch my drift here??? Mind you this isnt the same with every situation this is just what I hahve experianced and heard. I am sure there are exceptions.

Yes, I agree. This is what can happen in reality, which is why I qualified my statement with "in theory...perfect". In theory, a perfect competitive dancer would have a perfect understanding of body structure and movement and would therefore be able dance well with anyone. However, in reality, he/she may have enough time to practice dancing well with only one person.

 

[tangotime]

I worked in the American " system " for many , many, yrs. What I discovered, in very short order,was that the social system was being taught, by and large, to beginners, by beginners . The idea that one could train for 6 weeks, and then pass on all your fountain of knowledge , to the next person that walked in the door.

Having said that, never understood why the " trainers " of new teachers, who themselves were not always adequate, seem to adopt such a casual approach , to a serious subject .( time constraints in most cases )

The social side of dance , never seems to be given the same , if somewhat modified approach, that the competitor demands , this is largely due, from my experience , to the students ability to give the time ( and in many cases ) the financial support it takes to achieve a high standard of social dance .



So, if one does not train the average social dancer , and equip them with the skills needed to develop good lead and follow , then the results are passed down, or the lack of them, generationally. This seems to be the root problem people run into at socials .

To 9dncr-- to your q " isnt that why they started taking etc."-- simple answer-- no-- not as a general rule . People come into dance schools for a miriad of reasons. Of course , there is always a percentage that wants perfection. The attrition rate in classes for e.g. , is huge, at beginner levels .

 

[Dave Bailey]

I've just started in ballroom, but it seems to me that the "social side" of things is much less vibrant than other dances, like WCS / Salsa / AT?

There seems to be more emphasis on dancing for the sake of exams / competitions, and less on dancing because you want to, well, dance - is that right?

 

[tangotime]

Dave -- it very much depends on the country in which you reside-- definitely not so in the states--

I currently am only teaching social in my groups, and reserving the more comp. style for my priv. students . You should check around and ask about the different types of classes available ( the english social style, can also be a little too rigid if you happen to pick the wrong school )

 

[Angelo]

In my own experience, it seems that highly developed ballroom dancing is so closely linked to competition because the competitive dancers on average tend to spend much more time, effort, and attention on training and practice. For the person who want to develop their social dancing, they need to dance as much as possible with others who are willing to spend time effort and attention on the same goals. Its hard enough to find one person with which to engage in serious practice and even if you do, there is no guarantee that the skills and habits you develop with one partner will automatically transfer over to dancing with multiple partners.

Another consideration is that competitive dancers have a tangible, observable result with which to measure their progress. For the social dancer you need to be willing to establish your own set of criteria for progress as ballroom dancing instructors typically don't set many restrictive bounds on dancing that is engaged in primarily for its own enjoyment.

 

[tanya_the_dancer]

FWIW, out of roughly 50 regulars in our area I know only one couple who does not compete, yet works on the same things as competitive people do.

 

[anp73ga31]

In our area, there are plenty of people who just want to social dance. Some of them have been dancing for 15 years and still do such basic steps (and not even that well!) that I am horrified. Others have teachers who teach them the technique even if they dont care to compete, and they are truly a joy to dance with. My instructor says that he has alot of people who just want to learn the steps and nothing else. So he teaches them the steps and then tries to go back over the correct way to use your body while doing those steps so that your partner can tell what you are doing, and they flat out interrupt him, asking for more steps. Insane....even if I never compete (wah!), I want to do everything right. I dont want to just do some semblance of the dance....I hate half-assing stuff and I dont understand why alot of people are ok with it. Funny thing is, the comp people could totally benefit from going to socials and learning how to navigate thru crowded floors, etc. while the social dancers could totally benefit from learning a little technique.

 

[Chris Stratton]

What usually works is to pursue competitive dancing, but always try to see the basic dancing ideas underneath the supeficialties of competition concerns that might float across the surface. Having an environment, even if it's just a small circle of friends, in which you can social dance without backing off too much from your competition practice habits, then draws the two together.

Some of the specific issues that come up - lack of swing, extra space between partners, etc - these aren't as major as you might at first think. Sure, they conflict with the trappings of competition dancing, but if you look at the real core ideas, their implications are there, but not total.

For example, was at a social last weekend and danced with a woman who usually practices competition style dancing with her ex-competitor spouse, using quite purposeful body contact. We ended up dancing with a lot of space between us... but despite the space there was rarely an abscence of connection of our centers, because were are both used to sensing exactly where a partner is and what they are doing. Simply inserting some space didn't change that.