Inside the male mind: Thoughts on body contact, anyone?

In practice what will often happen is that if someone repeatedly oversteps boundaries through flirting with people who don't want it, they will get a reputation as an unpleasant person and they'll get fewer and fewer dances until they end up not coming dancing anymore.

Usually someone will go and tell the person to cut it out before that happens but if that's not listened to the person may end up being asked to leave and to be honest, good riddance then.

The majority of people who go dancing are perfectly capable of respecting boundaries and not being inappropriate so dancing isn't going to go away through throwing the occasional person out who doesn't get the culture.

It's not my job in my hobby that I do for fun to put up with unpleasant interactions with people who are being socially clueless. They can be educated elsewhere. Yes they are human but so am I and their wants to interact with me are not more important than my wants to not interact with them.

NB: Scenes will be different and the different dances have different cultures as well. So my comments won't necessarily fit everwhere

I fully agree with you. Self-regulating. Although I do have safety concerns for who is going to throw someone out (or even to do the cut-it-out talk), with the crazies out there these days. Perhaps the community should elect a sacrificial lamb (??).

The newcomers may be less able to "stand up" for themselves (or know how much "nice" they should be) and consequently be more likely to be targets for borderline boundary crossers.


Disclaimer: My writings are my opinion, which may or may not reflect that of others.
 
Note that a major gist of the article was that flirting is ingrained in the human experience, practiced by the majority of people, consciously or subconsciously. Then points 1 and 2 are some impractical limits imposed on human nature that's just can't be enforced, regardless of how you consider a place "different" or people "different."

Here is an example of how "artificial" barriers such as distinction between bars and organized-dance venues are crossed and classical notions/rules of socializing based on location/environment are transgressed.

Say, bar-goers looking to hook up don't find suitable partners or view the bar scene as too "socializing-unfriendly" (because goers distrust each other, given the "meat market" nature, or because they find too many "phony" people, or too many drinkers, etc..). Then they look for the next best similar venues to look for partners... dance places.
 
If a dancer violating some etiquette (may not even be flirting) doesn't have a "connection" to anyone at a dance environment, then it'll be practically impossible to communicate to that dancer to "cut it out" without the risk of serious retaliation. My belief is that some (or most?) people are inclined to have major resentment reactions when approached by strangers who want to modify their behavior ("who the hell are you" reactions), especially in face-to-face interaction.
What kind of "retaliation" do you think the flirter will take when a woman responds with, "you know, the women here are here to dance, not to get picked up"? Or are you just concerned with the fact that the flirter may get hurt feelings? If he wants to avoid hurt feelings, he can avoid flirting. Enough hurt and he'll learn the lesson.
 
I understand that. However, that... doesn't really have anything to do with what I was talking about when I mentioned personal experience.
.

Sorry, I quoted you because the line in your post was relevant, but my remarks were directed towards Partner Dancer, and evidently my post was insightful.

I thought Partner Dancer might have been an older woman, but if he's a male, then this is just...weird. I'm going to quietly back away now.
 
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Read the article I mentioned. Is "non-fraternization" really the default, especially if women are running around sending signals and confusing the men (in many instances)?

Perhaps the prudent thing is to do is just _ignore_ the signals if one doesn't care to receive them.

Alternatively, the women should get the other women to act like robots and stop sending signals.


Disclaimer: My writings are my opinion, which may or may not reflect that of others.

In your extensive quotes of the article, why did you omit the following?


If the non-verbal response to your eye contact, moving closer or other signals such as a simple arm-touch is negative, there is clearly no point in asking "May I kiss you?" or even "May I hold your hand?" If the body-language response is positive, you progress cautiously, gradually escalating the level of intimacy only if you continue to receive positive responses, and backing off immediately if the responses are negative. If more people understood and followed such simple rules, there would be no need for misguided attempts to prevent sexual harassment by banning harmless flirtation
 
What kind of "retaliation" do you think the flirter will take when a woman responds with, "you know, the women here are here to dance, not to get picked up"? Or are you just concerned with the fact that the flirter may get hurt feelings? If he wants to avoid hurt feelings, he can avoid flirting. Enough hurt and he'll learn the lesson.

The article mentions:

Some scientists have even claimed that women have a special 'diplomacy gene' which men lack.
 
In your extensive quotes of the article, why did you omit the following?


If the non-verbal response to your eye contact, moving closer or other signals such as a simple arm-touch is negative, there is clearly no point in asking "May I kiss you?" or even "May I hold your hand?" If the body-language response is positive, you progress cautiously, gradually escalating the level of intimacy only if you continue to receive positive responses, and backing off immediately if the responses are negative. If more people understood and followed such simple rules, there would be no need for misguided attempts to prevent sexual harassment by banning harmless flirtation

Probably because I took the lines to mean "in the ideal situations" or "in the desired situations" rather than "in all situations." Many men are just unaware, not sensitive enough, not experienced enough, etc., but also possibly, as quoted from the article:

The answer is that although we are programmed to flirt, flirting, like every other 'instinctive' human activity, involves an element of social learning.

Misunderstandings can arise, for example, from the fact that men tend to mistake women's friendliness for sexual interest.

It is perhaps not entirely surprising, given the levels of ambiguity and deception to which they are subjected, that males of the species tend to become confused.





It's a reasonably long article, and readers are apt to apply some bias in their reading. That's why I suggested everyone read the article itself and tried to minimize individual "interpretation" as globally applicable. Somehow, some readers still "assume" I'm trying to force my bias on others, even when I _explicitly_ state that I'm against that. (It's the nature of communication, I suppose.) As I stated before, even the choice of quoting includes bias.



Disclaimer: My writings are my opinion, and may or may not reflect that of others.
 
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If the non-verbal response to your eye contact, moving closer or other signals such as a simple arm-touch is negative, there is clearly no point in asking "May I kiss you?" or even "May I hold your hand?" If the body-language response is positive, you progress cautiously, gradually escalating the level of intimacy only if you continue to receive positive responses, and backing off immediately if the responses are negative. If more people understood and followed such simple rules, there would be no need for misguided attempts to prevent sexual harassment by banning harmless flirtation

This looks like a nice rule, but thinking about it, it's not that useful

Problem is that responses are not black and white - there is a wide range from very positive to very negative response. Those with "more aggressive approach" just have the line dividing "positive" from "negative" at different place of the scale
 
I was going to say that the thread has veered wildly off-topic, but then thinking further, this last tangent has indeed given us a glimpse inside the male mind.

SOME male minds; in all fairness, some guys have spoken up in a way that I appreciate. I'm not going to go back through to cite names, but thank you to those of you who did.
 
A particular male mind. Some male DF regulars have repeatedly shown it's not a monolithic opinion.

<beavis>heh heh ... did she say "monolith"? heh heh</beavis>

Cheap humor aside:

I think it would be useful in these kinds of discussions to differentiate between one-time interactions (two people meet, interact, never expect to meet again), first-time interactions (two people meet, interact, and expect to meet again), and recurring interactions (two people interact in the context of familiar/understood/expected past and future interactions).

That seems not to be happening explicitly in this discussion at the moment. I think that's one reason it's not converging toward consensus.
 

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