International Standard Waltz: CBM vs no CBM

[Arun Garg]

As Peter Eggleton once told me, "Even the [then British and World Champions] aren't perfect; they're just better than anyone else right now."

I would call the things the other couples in the finals were doing that caused them not to win "errors". In fact, the implication of Eggleton's statement is that even the winning couple might be making errors.

Not sure you can call these “errors”. Peter Eggleton may have had a case because he was, well, Peter Eggleton. And it seems like he was just saying this to bring who ever he was speaking to back down to realistic expectations, i.e. “not everyone is perfect”

But for those of us that have not achieved that standard of dancing, nor coached those professional champions can hardly call a mechanical choice at that level an error.

 

[Arun Garg]

In competition, if a "different" style prevents everyone who uses it from winning, it is reasonably characterized as an erroneous style

Are you implying that anyone who doesn’t take home first place is dancing an erroneous style? ….that’s a ton of erroneous dancing in the world with only a handful of legitimate dancers LOL

 

[Arun Garg]

Out of curiosity, are you seeing Alessia's toe turn in on step 1 here? I'm not. Or, rather, to the extent that there's toe turn in, it's doesn't seem to be enough to be visible along the outside edge of her foot, although one could perhaps argue for it along the inside edge of her foot, so maybe half the angle the toe box makes from the heel, at most 10 degrees or so.

I don’t see a big toe turn in, no, but that was never the claim. I do see her giving a slight inside edge of the foot, which is probably *just enough* of a toe in action to release her left hip and open space for Mirko to step through. I think we are all in agreement that no one should take a big honkin toe in step.

 

[j_alexandra]

Eggleton's "better than" certainly implies the other couples were more than just "different": that they were "worse".

In competition, if a "different" style prevents everyone who uses it from winning, it is reasonably characterized as an erroneous style.

when you get Eggleton to point out which technique he thought was errors, and which dancers he thought were worse, I’m in. Until then, your assumptions and mine are clearly different.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

when you get Eggleton to point out which technique he thought was errors, and which dancers he thought were worse, I’m in. Until then, your assumptions and mine are clearly different.

Well, Eggleton was somewhat notorious for telling the man to step "forward, forward" on steps 1 and 2 of the natural turn, so I feel fairly confident in thinking he would have considered turnout or curve on step 1 to be erroneous.

As for which dancers he might have thought were worse, the couple he mentioned with the implication they were best were the Hiltons, and I'm pretty sure this was before the year when the dances at Blackpool were split three ways in the professional final, so feel free to look up who might have been near the top but sometimes behind the Hiltons back then.

 

[wahoo_foxtrot]

Well, Eggleton was somewhat notorious for telling the man to step "forward, forward" on steps 1 and 2 of the natural turn, so I feel fairly confident in thinking he would have considered turnout or curve on step 1 to be erroneous.

As for which dancers he might have thought were worse, the couple he mentioned with the implication they were best were the Hiltons, and I'm pretty sure this was before the year when the dances at Blackpool were split three ways in the professional final, so feel free to look up who might have been near the top but sometimes behind the Hiltons back then.

Even among the forward-forward pack that walk very linear, some couple shape and sway more and some shape and sway less. Then there is Pino and Bucciarelli doing more curved 1 and 2.
(Again, I may be mistaken b/c of my amateur untrained eyes.)

 

[Warren J. Dew]

I don’t see a big toe turn in, no, but that was never the claim. I do see her giving a slight inside edge of the foot, which is probably *just enough* of a toe in action to release her left hip and open space for Mirko to step through. I think we are all in agreement that no one should take a big honkin toe in step.

Let's contrast what Alessia is doing with her left foot on step back on 1 here, with maybe 10 degrees of toe in, with what Mirko is doing with his step back on 4, with maybe 50 degrees of toe in, including some pivot. I would contend that if you tell an average student to "turn the toe in", they are likely to do something closer to Mirko's step 4, without using any pivot, so "turn the toe in" is a misleading description of Alessia's step 1.

But hey, if we're all agreed that what Alessia is doing on step 1 is correct here, what exactly is it doing to "release her left hip"? At most it moves the base for her center of gravity half a foot width to her left. Even Mirko isn't that thin!

The lady doesn't have to clear her left hip out of the way of the man anyway, because her left hip isn't in the way of the man in the first place, due to the partnership offset. What she does need to do is clear her right hip out of the way of the man. To get her right hip entirely out of the way of the man she can take enough CBM to rotate her hips up to 90 degrees beyond square. A full 90 degrees might not be needed for all couples, but Alessia comes pretty close here - and the amount of CBM Alessia is taking may help explain how much CBM Mirko is taking, and why his hips end up so far past square.

It looks to me like the critical thing Alessia is doing to clear her right hip is not the toe in, but keeping her weight over the left toe until the right foot and leg passes, before putting the left heel down. I don't know about Alessia, but another lady who did this action properly, and got a full 90 degree hip rotation beyond square, might end up with some apparent "toe in" - or perhaps more accurately "heel out" - in the left foot if she was not able to get a full 90 degree turnout between hip and knee/foot - not because she was aiming for toe in, but just because that was where her heel came down after she finished her CBM and cleared the right hip out of the way of the man. Basically the geometry dictates that the amount of hip rotation from CBM is equal to the sum of the amount of hip turnout in the left hip plus the amount of "toe in / heel out". But a ballet trained dancer able to do a full 90 degrees of turnout in each hip - 180 degrees of total turnout - would be able to take this action with no toe in at all.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

Even among the forward-forward pack that walk very linear, some couple shape and sway more and some shape and sway less. Then there is Pino and Bucciarelli doing more curved 1 and 2.
(Again, I may be mistaken b/c of my amateur untrained eyes.)

Shape is a separate thing, I agree.

Pino and Bucciarelli were considerably later, but yes, I'm pretty sure they were Irvine school, not Eggleton school. That said, I looked through several videos and didn't find them curving the natural much; the opening natural here looks like it tracks pretty straight diagonal wall to me:

 

[madmaximus]

when you get Eggleton to point out which technique he thought was errors, and which dancers he thought were worse, I’m in. Until then, your assumptions and mine are clearly different.

Interesting point.
I've always believed that after a certain point in training, we don't commit errors any more; rather we commit mistakes. The former is caused by a lack of understanding, while the latter is caused by variance in style or accuracy or both.

And no one was more accurate than the Hiltons. When they placed their feet, it never got reset nor caused them to be out of position.
It was hyper-accurate every time, placed with considerable forethought on its effect on the next two steps.

When our lifetime-masterpiece painting is judged alongside MichaelAngelo's chapel scribblings . . . well good luck, I guess.

Many moons ago, my mentors insisted I learn how to curve the NT so as to present a softer Silhouette—yet some adjudicators I studied with (those of the straight/straight school) found the style, hmm, "unbearably incorrect."

I guess this goes back to the notion of how we want to approach our dancing. Perhaps, it could be in the mould of a more classical line like the Hiltons, or perhaps the more open and exaggerated as is the notion these days. Just depends on the school of thought.




m

 

[Arun Garg]

The lady doesn't have to clear her left hip out of the way of the man anyway

To clarify, it vacates space backwards by encouraging the spine to progress on the left as well as on the right. The fact that the backwards stepping partner has to vacate space on the right side is a given. This is to encourage both sides to progress, while making space backwards in the base to allow the forward stepper to step linearly with out blockage.

 

[madmaximus]

Even among the forward-forward pack that walk very linear, some couple shape and sway more and some shape and sway less. Then there is Pino and Bucciarelli doing more curved 1 and 2.
(Again, I may be mistaken b/c of my amateur untrained eyes.)

Indeed, shape and sway are deeply intertwined with CBM (and R&Fall, for that matter) and should not be disassociated with other skills for their impact.

The Silhouette (and by that I mean Shape to pertain to the individual and Silhouette, to the couple) fundamentally informs how we create CBM. When coupled with R&F, how we employ CBM will inevitably define how and how much we will Sway.

These are simple mechanical truths that drive the resulting artistic expression.





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[Warren J. Dew]

Many moons ago, my mentors insisted I learn how to curve the NT so as to present a softer Silhouette—yet some adjudicators I studied with (those of the straight/straight school) found the style, hmm, "unbearably incorrect."

Can you clarify how the curved school works? If, for example, you curve step 1 of the natural 45 degrees to the right, ending pointing wall, which direction does the side step track in? Do you now turn only an additional 1/8 between 1 and 2, tracking the side step DW? Or do you still turn an additional 1/4 between 1 and 2, tracking the side step to wall?

And now I remember terminology from decades ago, a dichotomy between "straight CBM" and "curved CBM", which perhaps refers to this debate.

 

[madmaximus]

Can you clarify how the curved school works? . . .

Gladly Warren:

The Curved NT (my mentors' term) derives from the specs of the 1-2 and 4-5 steps of the Natural Turn.

It is somewhat complicated but I'll try to do it justice here.
Note that this explanation is from the perspective of the gentleman.
The lady's approach would be similar but still commands some differences...

The basis of the Curved Movement for NT or other figure is the foot position of the dancer relative to the partner; the RF of my partner is to the right of my RF—an extreme position, and how far apart will depend on skill level.

This position is not a requirement; certainly, Curved NT can be performed in the traditional (read: tighter) position where the RF of my partner is slightly to the left of my RF.
More often than not, however, it is the couple's alignment that demands its use.

Given this extreme position, the only way I can step forward inline, say towards DW, without having to bump into my partner's right leg or having to go OP is to rotate my (and partner's) feet 45deg. CCW, or to the left, effectively pointing them down LOD, and then taking the RF step.

In effect, this changes the first step of the NT from FWD to Diag Fwd and necessitates the crucial point, that my left side should be delayed so I can get past my partner's right leg on step 1; thus, creating a Late or Delayed CBM situation. This is the same on steps 4-5 too. This is the first bit.

Understanding the preceding, we can then, at the beginning of the figure, rotate further CCW so that now I am facing between DC and LOD.

I then take the first step D.Fwd. towards BETWEEN LOD and slightly to DW. The second step is taken LF in CBMP and ended toe TIGHTLY turned-in. The lady must shorten her 2nd step.

The curve happens over two steps, and the CBM is delayed so much that it can be argued that it is now a right-side lead (for the g.).

This is the situation where the lady HAS to toe-in (LF) heavily in order to a) not peel her hip off from the gentleman, and b) make the second step possible.

The technique requires good Body Flight on the prior step to swing the body and comfortably leave the left side behind on the first step—hence, the need for a good prep step.

This is the basic structure. There is an entire effect>cause>effect cascade involving customizations/skills.





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[Warren J. Dew]

Thanks! I think I understand step 1; can you go into a little more detail on step 2? I'm not really seeing how both the first and second steps can be in CBMP.

 

[madmaximus]

. . . can you go into a little more detail on step 2? I'm not really seeing how both the first and second steps can be in CBMP.

Just to clarify, the LF prep step (for the gent) is step zero (0).
The first step is the RF (as in the regular NT).

Note also that in the Curved, the first step does not have CBMP on 1.

In regular (syllabus) NT, CBM is on steps 1 & 4.
The CBM typically resolves to neutral at the end of 1 (when LF catches up to the RF), or 4.

It is a different technique in the Curved, and indeed, in more advanced CBM applications.

Step 1 is a Diag Forward step—taken with right-side dominant | delayed CBM (arguable).

As for step 2:
The CBM is delayed (another way of saying this: the left shoulder is kept back throughout step 1) until well into step 2, and resolved only when the RF heel is released (during step 2) and begins to close to the LF (now the standing foot in the 2nd half of the second step).

On the first half of step 2, before the LF is planted, my mentors would often pivot on the RF to get more turn, plant the LF in CBMP as far inline to the RF as possible, toe turned in, and start resolving the CBM only when the RF closes to the LF. The hips resolve first followed by the shoulders.

Also note that with this delay, the axis of the CBM is relocated to the lady's left shoulder.





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