International Standard Waltz: CBM vs no CBM

[Warren J. Dew]

This statement is not supported by the literature. For instance Hearn states "a general guide is that turns to the right have a stronger CBM than turns to the left" in his advanced technique monograph. Similar statements can be found by Oliver Wessel-Therhorn (attributed to Bill Irvine) and by Alex Moore.

You're talking about "stronger" CBM; Fiesta and I are talking about "earlier" or "later" CBM. It would be possible both to do stronger CBM on natural turns, and earlier CBM on reverse turns.

This might explain why I have the impression there were disagreements between older coaches on this issue.

 

[Captain Price]

You're talking about "stronger" CBM; Fiesta and I are talking about "earlier" or "later" CBM. It would be possible both to do stronger CBM on natural turns, and earlier CBM on reverse turns.

This might explain why I have the impression there were disagreements between older coaches on this issue.

On the timing of the CBM, Hearn states "left turn, late turn". This is obvious if one considers that the man's body passes the lady's on step 1 of a Natural Turn (also see the Eggleton still); on a Reverse, the man passes the lady on step 2.

 

[fiesta0618]

This statement is not supported by the literature. For instance Hearn states "a general guide is that turns to the right have a stronger CBM than turns to the left" in his advanced technique monograph. Similar statements can be found by Oliver Wessel-Therhorn (attributed to Bill Irvine) and by Alex Moore.

On the timing of the CBM, Hearn states "left turn, late turn". This is obvious if one considers that the man's body passes the lady's on step 1 of a Natural Turn (also see the Eggleton still); on a Reverse, the man passes the lady on step 2.

I don't mean to be cheeky, but this really does look like the same muddiness of terminology to which I credited the OP's initial question. I don't think that literature you cite disagrees with me at all. Here's why.

First, CBM is not turn. When Hearn states "late left turn," I agree fully. But again, this is a function of the geometry of a right-side offset. CBM has little to do with it. Right turns pass earlier than left turns even without CBM.

Second, if we agree that the left turn has the same amount of rotation as the right turn, it means the outer and inner and sides of the body travel about the same distance. If that is true, and if the left turn is executed later then the right turn, it follows that the difference between the speeds of the outer and inner sides (i.e, strength of CBM) will be less in left turns. So I again agree with Hearn. But as Warren pointed out, strength has little bearing on when CBM is initiated...other than the fact that late CBM will need to be stronger simply because there is a set distance for the sides to travel relative to one another and less time in which to cover it.

 

[j_alexandra]

I find it unfortunate that discussions on CBM (and other technical matters, for that matter) tend to devolve into the point-of-view purely about the mechanics of the gentleman—often to the exclusion of the lady's part which is just as critical.

[ as a side note: IMO, this tendency is a key reason we lose the participation of our other half in many of these discussions.
Something to be mindful about and change.
After all, the person (usually) moving backwards will likely dictate where things occur and how they evolve.]

ftfy


It would be wise for the novice dancer to realize that while the gentleman might seem to have the prerogative of choosing what to execute, it is often the lady that must ensure its success.


m

If I may repeat a long-ago reaction to one of your long-ago posts: <swoon>

Seriously, gentlemen. I am not a potted plant. If I want to make your leading-life easier, I can, and I will, if you let me.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

On the timing of the CBM, Hearn states "left turn, late turn". This is obvious if one considers that the man's body passes the lady's on step 1 of a Natural Turn (also see the Eggleton still); on a Reverse, the man passes the lady on step 2.

This sounds like a statement on the timing of the turn, not on the timing of the CBM.

Because of the offset between the partners, CBM has a different positional effect in the reverse turn than in the natural turn.

In the natural turn, the offset means that the gentleman can pass the lady's planted left foot without first changing relative body positions. The CBM assists with the actual passing of the gentleman's body past the lady's, so it can occur toward, or continue through, the end of step 1, when that body passing starts to happen.

In the reverse turn, the positioning of the feet in step 1 must be adjusted to permit the gentleman to later pass the lady on her left side, past her planted right foot. I use the CBM to assist with this adjustment of the foot positioning - I think of it as the lady placing her right foot track a bit outboard, and the gentleman's left foot track a bit inboard, so that the tracks are roughly reversed - which means a significant amount of the CBM has to occur earlier, before step 1 is placed, considerably before the bodies are actually passing.

That implies I need earlier CBM in the reverse turn than in the natural turn, even though the turn itself might happen later.

 

[tangotime]

This sounds like a statement on the timing of the turn, not on the timing of the CBM.

Because of the offset between the partners, CBM has a different positional effect in the reverse turn than in the natural turn.

In the natural turn, the offset means that the gentleman can pass the lady's planted left foot without first changing relative body positions. The CBM assists with the actual passing of the gentleman's body past the lady's, so it can occur toward, or continue through, the end of step 1, when that body passing starts to happen.

In the reverse turn, the positioning of the feet in step 1 must be adjusted to permit the gentleman to later pass the lady on her left side, past her planted right foot. I use the CBM to assist with this adjustment of the foot positioning - I think of it as the lady placing her right foot track a bit outboard, and the gentleman's left foot track a bit inboard, so that the tracks are roughly reversed - which means a significant amount of the CBM has to occur earlier, before step 1 is placed, considerably before the bodies are actually passing.

That implies I need earlier CBM in the reverse turn than in the natural turn, even though the turn itself might happen later.

OK.... this has reached the point of paralysis by analysis. And, how to frighten a beginner in one easy lesson !!

Matters such as this, are better served in a private lesson as so much can be mis understood .

 

[Warren J. Dew]

OK.... this has reached the point of paralysis by analysis. And, how to frighten a beginner in one easy lesson !!

Matters such as this, are better served in a private lesson as so much can be mis understood .

Pity - I was hoping for some TT commentary on some of the quotes, such as on early/late CBM/turn. I'm pretty sure the beginners are long gone, so we needn't be concerned about that!

 

[j_alexandra]

In reverse turn with late or no CBM, the forward-moving partner is substantially blocked on step 2. Early CBM adjusts the geometry to allow linear passing.

If All Turn Happens Between 1 and 2, how is the forward-moving partner blocked on 2? If I get the hell out of his way by, y'know, moving to where I'm supposed to go between 1-2, he gets past me, because I made it possible, early CBM or no.

That said, I do agree that natural turns lend themselves to much bigger shapes and movements...precisely because less effort is required for the simple act of passing.

Speak for yourself. There's nothing natural about a Natural Turn, from the follow's side -- it's a nightmare of potential screwups waiting to happen. So easy for me to pull myself off him! Or cross his center line! I can block his movement! No, wait, I can lose my poise! No, wait, I can crunch my side in the sway! He can muscle me so far across him that I have to fight him to stay in position! "Natural" is not descriptive. (Why oh why didn't they just name the turns "left" and "right," which are easy and intuitive? ARRRGH)

I repeat: I am not a potted plant. It's my job to help Mr. Outside of Turn get where he's going. Or at the very least, not hinder (it's a low bar).

 

[fiesta0618]

If All Turn Happens Between 1 and 2, how is the forward-moving partner blocked on 2? If I get the hell out of his way by, y'know, moving to where I'm supposed to go between 1-2, he gets past me, because I made it possible, early CBM or no.

....

I repeat: I am not a potted plant. It's my job to help Mr. Outside of Turn get where he's going. Or at the very least, not hinder (it's a low bar).

I concede, I've overgeneralized my case again.

What I describe is the outcome in the context I've studied...where, to be frank, I think the followers perhaps are tacitly encouraged to be potted plants. The portion of your post that I bolded is a sentiment I don't often hear in my circles--it does come up, but only in certain specific patterns and not as a general philosophy.

In potted-plant world, the time spent over the standing leg on 1 is too brief to provide the entire rotational impulse and have it be heard. That's the basis of my statement, but I can see now it is too narrowly defined.

 

[Captain Price]

To help understand and appreciate my earlier statements, as well as those of some eminent dancers quoted, may I suggest the following introspective exercise.

First stand facing DW, and dance step 1 of a Closed Change, commenced with the RF forward (man), as you normally would in waltz. After the completion of this step, change your mind, and attempt to proceed with steps 2-3 of the Natural Turn. How easy is that?

Now commence facing DC, and dance step 1 of a Closed Change, commenced with the LF forward (man). After the completion of this step, change your mind, and attempt to proceed with steps 2-3 of the Reverse Turn. Is that easier or harder?

 

[j_alexandra]

What I describe is the outcome in the context I've studied...where, to be frank, I think the followers perhaps are tacitly encouraged to be potted plants. The portion of your post that I bolded is a sentiment I don't often hear in my circles--it does come up, but only in certain specific patterns and not as a general philosophy.

Always. It's my job to help *you* dance better. If you can locate it, there's a Blackpool lecture by Vicky Barr, entitled How To Help Your Partner in His Pursuit of Perfection. 1995, I think. She has a lot to say about, well, helping your partner.

In potted-plant world,

the time spent over the standing leg on 1 is too brief to provide the entire rotational impulse and have it be heard. That's the basis of my statement, but I can see now it is too narrowly defined.

Hoo boy. Agree to disagree, here.

 

[Warren J. Dew]

If All Turn Happens Between 1 and 2, how is the forward-moving partner blocked on 2? If I get the hell out of his way by, y'know, moving to where I'm supposed to go between 1-2, he gets past me, because I made it possible, early CBM or no.

The blocking in a reverse turn, if it occurs, occurs as a result of the backward moving partner going to somewhere different from where he or she is "supposed to go" on 1. By the time step 2 is taken, it's too late. As you said earlier about CBM, "It matters. It changes everything in the ease and fluidity of doing the figure." It particularly matters in the reverse turn with regard to the correct placement of the backward moving partner in steps 1 and 4.

The portion of your post that I bolded is a sentiment I don't often hear in my circles--it does come up, but only in certain specific patterns and not as a general philosophy.

In potted-plant world, the time spent over the standing leg on 1 is too brief to provide the entire rotational impulse and have it be heard. That's the basis of my statement, but I can see now it is too narrowly defined.

I think she was referring to the first half of the natural turn there. In that particular step, the backward moving partner can use solid grounding on the left foot for a full beat not only to complete their entire rotation, but also to pull the forward moving partner through their entire swing and rotation, as well. With a strong backward moving partner - and Vicky Barr would definitely be that - this can be very fun for the forward moving partner.

 

[fiesta0618]

If you can locate it, there's a Blackpool lecture by Vicky Barr, entitled How To Help Your Partner in His Pursuit of Perfection. 1995, I think. She has a lot to say about, well, helping your partner.

I did find it, for those interested. A little inconvenient, as it is only available on DVD as part of a 10-video package. But this conversation may convince me to put down the $100.

Michael & Vicky Barr - Blackpool Congress (Package)

This 10-video package containing THE WORLD’S BEST LECTURES with Michael and Vicky Barr. The lectures are a live recording of the event that took place in Winter Gardens, Blackpool Michael and Vicky Barr have had a fascinating, and as they themselves would say, enjoyable career. Having grown up...

nicedancing.com

 

[j_alexandra]

I did find it, for those interested. A little inconvenient, as it is only available on DVD as part of a 10-video package. But this conversation may convince me to put down the $100.

Michael & Vicky Barr - Blackpool Congress (Package)

This 10-video package containing THE WORLD’S BEST LECTURES with Michael and Vicky Barr. The lectures are a live recording of the event that took place in Winter Gardens, Blackpool Michael and Vicky Barr have had a fascinating, and as they themselves would say, enjoyable career. Having grown up...

nicedancing.com

Nice dancing also has the Blackpool lectures from 95. Don’t think it’s quite as pricey.

 

[j_alexandra]

I think she was referring to the first half of the natural turn there. In that particular step, the backward moving partner can use solid grounding on the left foot for a full beat not only to complete their entire rotation, but also to pull the forward moving partner through their entire swing and rotation, as well. With a strong backward moving partner - and Vicky Barr would definitely be that - this can be very fun for the forward moving partner.

She meant always. Mr. Outside of Turn is still outside of turn in a reverse turn, isn’t he?

But if you only want help from a “strong backward moving partner” in the natural turn, you do you.