International style frame: how to fake it?

[dnquark]

I have little in terms of formal ballroom training. Every now and then I happen to be at a ballroom social. Every now and then I happen to have a partner who glues herself to my thigh (what I understand is the competitive international style connection.)

Now, I'm not at all a stranger to close connection - I do it all the time in blues, balboa and tango. But I am mystified as to what's going on in international style. It seems that her legs are *always* in the way. I can't take a step with my right without producing a thigh-crotch lead. The dance becomes an exercise in trying not to stumble and fall - not a hugely enjoyable process.

I welcome any comments that might help...

 

[ACtenDance]

Those partners are certainly not creating an acceptable connection. The connection shouldn't be all that far off of what you probably experience in Tango...

 

[bjp22tango]

Those partners are certainly not creating an acceptable connection. The connection shouldn't be all that far off of what you probably experience in Tango...

Actually, if it is Argentine Tango you are dancing the connection is quite different.

She should be connecting with her right side to your right side, not your thigh. Unless you are incredibly taller than she is you should get leg to leg contact from time to time in the moves but she shouldn't be riding your leg.

Make sure you are leading from your center when you begin to step so that she gets the impetus to start moving before your leg gets into her space. If you are sliding your right foot forward before you move your center that could be agravating the problem.

Good luck.

 

[fascination]

well here's the thing....IMO...dont worry about stepping on her and just step forward....if she knows what SHE"S doing then she will get out of your way...if she finds what you are doing not to her liking or expectation she wont do it again...depending upon the height difference legs and crotches are gonna um....be a factor....but she's probably accustomed to it...it sounds though like it didn't work for you so I would just reccommend you ask her about it afterward next time....I will say that other than in tango...the hip is not where I think of as my point of contact, at least not primarily on all moves....and even when I am dancing with another ballroom guy depending upon height and how often I dance with him and how aggressively we dance there can be a certain amount of er occasional jolt in the leg and crotch area...IMO

 

[saludas]

I have little in terms of formal ballroom training. Every now and then I happen to be at a ballroom social. Every now and then I happen to have a partner who glues herself to my thigh (what I understand is the competitive international style connection.)

Now, I'm not at all a stranger to close connection - I do it all the time in blues, balboa and tango. But I am mystified as to what's going on in international style. It seems that her legs are *always* in the way. I can't take a step with my right without producing a thigh-crotch lead. The dance becomes an exercise in trying not to stumble and fall - not a hugely enjoyable process.

I welcome any comments that might help...

Perhaps this person is not doing any technique but simply doing a socialdancer version of what she THINKS that close hold looks like - it happens a lot in the social world, where movement happens because the dancer imagines that the movement is created and not 'a result of'...

Also, perhaps the follow is completely clueless. Don't discount the fact that, at a social, there is maybe 10% of the dancing that is actually done correctly or well...

 

[fascination]

ah true....unless you know she knows what she's doing...I wouldn't give it a second thought...and/or a second dance...I mean ya either talk about it or avoid it..and saludas makes a point in that if she knew what she was doing she might make some adjustments once it was obvious that that particular stance wasn't going to fly with you....

 

[Chris Stratton]

A lot of times when someone doesn't have a consistently aligned frame, or dances regularly with a partner who doesn't, they come to expect the primary connection to be through the body rather than the frame. It's easy to tell if this is the case by simply extending your frame further from your own body - if the person lets their elbows go behind their back in order to stay in contact with you, they are basically ignoring the primary information that is in the frame, in favor of faking a look they've seen.

Some pro-am teachers will ask a beginner competition student to really park herself on their hip, as this makes it possible to "dance" someone who doesn't have fully developed following reflexes through a rough approximation of figures. But when both partners have skill, the information in the frame is enough to allow them to fly in formation, without having to physically push each other around.

 

[lynn]

Some pro-am teachers will ask a beginner competition student to really park herself on their hip, as this makes it possible to "dance" someone who doesn't have fully developed following reflexes through a rough approximation of figures.

Yep, this is what i've been told to do since my frame kind of comes & goes from time to time....

Another thing I find is that when I"m bumping knees or having too much leg to leg action with my teacher it's usually b/c i don't have my body in a diagonal (CBMP??) - not sure how to describe it though as i'm still in the midst of figuring out the problem myself...

 

[cornutt]

Another thing I find is that when I"m bumping knees or having too much leg to leg action with my teacher it's usually b/c i don't have my body in a diagonal (CBMP??) - not sure how to describe it though as i'm still in the midst of figuring out the problem myself...

It could be a simpler problem -- you just need to schooch over to the left a bit when you get in frame. I've noticed this in some followers, including some advanced ones: when they get in frame, they want to start in a face-to-face position. When that happens, even if they then position the head properly, that right leg is still in my way. It seems to be an unconscious thing. I have to remind them to move over just a tad when we get in frame.

 

[lynn]

That's part of the problem - my teacher constantly reminds me to have my body at a diagonal (almost leaning to the left?) so that I'm not face to face with the man and blocking his space.

 

[cornutt]

That's part of the problem - my teacher constantly reminds me to have my body at a diagonal (almost leaning to the left?) so that I'm not face to face with the man and blocking his space.

I think maybe I didn't understand your original comment, but I'll throw this in anyway. Take it for what it's worth:

The next time you get in frame, check where your feet wind up in relation to his. Your right foot should either be exactly in between his feet, or maybe just a bit towards his right foot. If your right foot is on the other side of that halfway line (towards his left foot) at all, your right leg will inhibit his first step, and it's downhill from there. All the body leaning in the world doesn't change your basic foot position -- it really needs to be correct before you actually get in frame.

 

[JoepiE]

I wouldn't want to fake the frame in the first place...

But to give you an advice;

If a lady places a heavy connection on your hips she's probably causing the problem. It's her duty to be as light as a feather, your discribing she's dancing really heavy, with lot's of physical connection, if I'm right.

This is what I saw in a instruction video by William Pino :raisebro: :

Let the lady stand 2 meters (7 ft.) in front of you, slightly to your right. Take her right hand in your left inviting her to come in position. She walks towards you and before she stands against you stop her by placing the inside of your right arm's elbow at her side just under her armpit.

You should be standing 30cm (1 ft) in front of eachother, slightly to eachothers left side.

Now, while keeping upper legs, hips, body and head upright lean forward rotating a bit to her. Give her all the space you can with you right arm. The lady does the same and creates a shape by moving her knees forward (not against, but towards you), just contacting your hips with hers. She extending her upper body as long as she can and keeping her shouders relaxed and down. Close the hold by placing your right hand where it belongs.

If it's still difficult to take a step forward, check if your fall is enough and if she moves good enough.

Remember what bjp22tango said:

Make sure you are leading from your center when you begin to step so that she gets the impetus to start moving before your leg gets into her space. If you are sliding your right foot forward before you move your center that could be agravating the problem.

This and giving her lot's of space are the only two things you can do.

Good luck!

 

[Chris Stratton]

This is what I saw in a instruction video by William Pino :raisebro: :

Let the lady stand 2 meters (7 ft.) in front of you, slightly to your right. Take her right hand in your left inviting her to come in position. She walks towards you and before she stands against you stop her by placing the inside of your right arm's elbow at her side just under her armpit.

Actually, you should set the initial spacing with your left hand - approximately, it will be midway between your bodies. If she ignores the information in your left hand and you try to stop her movement with your right instead (blind, because you are still looking left), there's a non-dismissable chance of getting a handfull of something that isn't shoulder blade.

 

[skwiggy]

This is what I saw in a instruction video by William Pino :raisebro: :

Let the lady stand 2 meters (7 ft.) in front of you, slightly to your right. Take her right hand in your left inviting her to come in position. She walks towards you and before she stands against you stop her by placing the inside of your right arm's elbow at her side just under her armpit.

I've seen this technique used, and I've been taught it before. I was given different advice from a female coach, and I prefer her method. She taught that when the man invites the lady into position, the lady positions herself. So the lady is responsible for her own spacing. The man's right arm, elbow, and everything else don't come into play until the lady's body is in position. In the same way, the lady's left arm and hand don't come into play until the man has placed his own arm. So the order she taught goes:

1. Man's left hand
2. Lady's right hand
3. Man's body position
4. Lady's body position
5. Man's right arm
6. Lady's left arm

I learned this many years ago in a workshop. It continues to help me to this day. I have taught it to others and it has helped them as well. In general, I feel it serves to keep the two people out of each other's way, and to prevent them from impacting one another's balance.

Now, that being said, if the lady is glueing herself to your body and infringing on your space and balance, there isn't much you can do about it. But if you are used to Argentine Tango as you said, in my experience the frame, lead and follow are all VERY different from ballroom. It's possible that she doesn't know what she's doing, or she's misinterpreting what she saw or was taught. It's also possible that you are used to a different connection and movement, so it feels like she's blocking you when in fact she isn't.

I agree, the frame cannot really be "faked". If you like to go ballroom dancing socially, perhaps you could invest in one lesson with a ballroom pro to learn about the different frame and lead that should be used for ballroom.