Int'l Foxtrot- More fluid? Less stiff?

[Gary C]

However, I don't agree with stiffening the arms. I have always been told that the frame is supported from the back, and not the arms, because the back contains much stronger muscles than what connects your arms to you shoulders.

Correct, it is and it does (kind of). This is one of those places where dancing and anatomy don't quite agree with one another. Muscles work by contracting, changing the angle of a joint. As a result, holding the arms horizontal to the ground is inevitably a primary action of the muscles that are above the shoulder joint - deltoid, trapezius, supraspinatus etc. all involved. A muscle underneath the shoulder joint can support and stabilise the ballroom hold position through tone but on its own it cannot place or keep the arm in a 90 degree abducted position. Hold your arm in position, relax as much as humanly possible and then touch your deltoid muscle - you'll see that it's contracting quite strongly.

In terms of my previous post, remember that the stiffening part is an exercise, not the end goal. It creates a step-change in the isometric stamina and tone of your arm and shoulder muscles without building bulk. This has to be done in combination with strengthening of the core musculature (rectus abdominis, internal and external obliques, transversus abdominis, quadratus lumborum, buttocks, gracilis etc) and the back muscles. But the main bit that stops your arms wobbling about in movement is the arms bit. Positioning and supporting with the back is the heart of the final ballroom hold (after you've prepared the body physically) but it's nigh on impossible to have a completely still hold in fast movement and sharp action with completely relaxed arms. On the contrary, the faster you spin and the sharper your actions, the more tone you have to put into your arms in those moments.

 

[vit]

Yes, explanations in ballroom, if taken literally, are indeed frequently whether in some contradiction with anatomy or can even sound as nonsense. However, they are part of teaching process established through decades and are actually part of the ballroom style. That's probably also why privates or small groups work much better than classes with big group - constant feedback between teacher and student is essential to ensure that those (well established) explanations ring the right bells and if not, to try something else. Problems arise when a teacher takes those explanations, taken from his mentor, too literally, so ratio between good and bad dance teachers in my area is very bad, and I suppose it's not much better elsewhere ... and the same if students take those explanations too literally

Of course there are no (or almost) muscles relaxed during dancing, especially if it is top class dancesport couple, as it is sport. However, all those muscles need to produce the right amount of force in every movement and in great harmony overall. Transformation from ordinary person to a dancer needs time for all of those muscles to be a kind of reprogrammed. If one is lucky that he/she is young and has good teacher, this process isn't that long, otherwise it can and usually is much longer at least in my area ... it's not even uncommon that people are actuaworse dancers after considerable time spent at classes than at the beginning although they got some dancing knowledge

What usually happens is that some group of muscles become too tense and other too relaxed in particular moment, that's why teachers usually say to relax - it doesn't mean that particular part of the body (like arms mentioned above) should be actually relaxed, but just that some muscles are too tense, that's just one example

 

[DanceMentor]

The comment about twisting the upper body is a little suspect to me. Is it being twisted so the center of the body is out of line with where the foot is pointing for example? Because it would be quite a challenge to maintain the frame if these two things didn't agree few well.

As for top dancers being stiff, it is important to recognize they know how to dance efficiently. They are not just stiff all over but have a sense of which muscles are needed at the moment.

 

[vit]

Of course it is twisted (in CBM, as stated above) and it is strongly twisted in one moment, just it is not statical position - you get into it and you get out of it - using elasticity of the whole body is very important here

 

[stash]

The comment about twisting the upper body is a little suspect to me. Is it being twisted so the center of the body is out of line with where the foot is pointing for example? Because it would be quite a challenge to maintain the frame if these two things didn't agree few well.

As for top dancers being stiff, it is important to recognize they know how to dance efficiently. They are not just stiff all over but have a sense of which muscles are needed at the moment.

I think the twist they were talking about was about the spine, with the hips stay inline to the partner.

 

[letsdance101]

Thank you all for the wonderful explanations/advice!

What really made sense to me is what randomaeiou said about squeezing the ball. That is exactly what I am doing. I had never thought about it but when I dance i contract all my arm muscles and all my muscles starting from right under my bust to right under my belly button. I think stiffening up all my core muscles is whats the problems during foxtrot.

Am I on the right track here? Do I need to loosen up my core muscles a little bit so that I can stretch up and over more?

 

[fascination]

top dancers are not stiff...they are toned and maintain their alignments...they may look fixed, but they do not look stiff

 

[Gary C]

yes ... but to become a top dancer you may benefit from going through a period of dancing with more tone in the core and the arms in order to develop the body discipline such that when you relax, your body doesn't fall out of alignment ... it works for a lot of people and maybe not for others ... personal choice but at least something to try.

when we work with our couples, the area with greatest tone is the core and then the arms need to be self-supported to give pressure to the partner. the core is not so toned that it can't move (rotation or flexion / extension) but it needs to be active and used to make shape, rather than allowed to sag... a most important time to use the core is when recovering from a shape...

 

[DanceMentor]

yes ... but to become a top dancer you may benefit from going through a period of dancing with more tone in the core and the arms in order to develop the body discipline such that when you relax, your body doesn't fall out of alignment ... it works for a lot of people and maybe not for others ... personal choice but at least something to try.

Agreed. At different times in your dancing you are training the body to different things. Makes sense to have someone really "fix" their frame into place to develop discipline. But then there are other body parts involved that must also be trained, and this just one strategy. That said, it can go a long way for a couple.

 

[clumsy fellow]

I found exploring the extremes to be beneficial... Goldilocks.

 

[fascination]

exploring them, yes...spending too much time there? not so much...unless you want a bad habit

 

[clumsy fellow]

No different than any other sport, until you know how the extremes effect outcome...

 

[DanceMentor]

No different than any other sport, until you know how the extremes effect outcome...

True enough, and once you've been dancing these figures for a decade or so, you've done a heck of a lot of testing. Then you start to also look at new extremes you hadn't considered such as looking extremely calm, or dancing extremely slow, or moving extremely together. There are many extremes to be explored! Some pan out better than others, but of course each person must find their dancing.