Invigilation for dancing standard in smooth

being invigilated because you don't break hold is ridiculous. I've learned the entire Bronze Fred Astaire syllabus, probably 70% of the smooth steps do'nt break hold in bronze, which are also probably a lot of steps the are illegal in NDCA but a lot of them are legal and they are perfectly smooth. As long as you dont cross your feet when doing a twinkle, amongst one issue, then there is nothing wrong with not breaking hold
 
Terpsichorean Clod said:
I saw this recently. Yes, they were sticking to the smooth syllabus. But they were dancing only the closed hold figures. And the prep step at the beginning was pretty noticeable. ;) I was surprised that the judges actually called the offending couples over and gave them an ultimatum - if the judges were to recall them to the next round, they had to promise to break hold.
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If this is really true - and the problem was not that the couple was dancing international style figures that might not be allowed in some smooth competitions, like spin turns or three steps - then tell us which competition it was so we can avoid it.
 
My best guess at what's really going on here: comps hire a bunch of strongly International dancers to judge, who proceed to judge the Smooth floor through Standard lenses. Dancing Smooth with solid Standard technique will help you no matter the judge, but now couples with good Standard technique but zero Smooth skills are getting marked above couples with a reasonable mix of both.

So they are trying to level the playing field by forcing Standard couples to demonstrate their lack of Smooth technique in open/apart steps.

I understand the reasoning, but it's absolutely not right. If it's in the syllabus, it needs to be allowed. IMO comps need to hire more Smooth-focused judges.
 
dbk, that's a good point. But yeah, trying to fix it via invigliation is putting a band-aid on the problem.
 
dbk said:
So they are trying to level the playing field by forcing Standard couples to demonstrate their lack of Smooth technique in open/apart steps.
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However, that is not the job of the Invigilators. The judges on the floor score that aspect.

I think what you have here is a judge who lost a game of rock-paper-scissors and was then forced to Invigilate.
 
As much of a Smooth cheerleader as I am, threatening DQ for not breaking hold is super silly, especially in the lower levels. Sure, I wouldn't mark a couple that I noticed sticking to their Natural Turn, Closed Change, Reverse Turn, Closed Change, Spin Turn combination, but that's for the judges to decide, not the invigilator.
 
dbk said:
My best guess at what's really going on here: comps hire a bunch of strongly International dancers to judge, who proceed to judge the Smooth floor through Standard lenses. Dancing Smooth with solid Standard technique will help you no matter the judge, but now couples with good Standard technique but zero Smooth skills are getting marked above couples with a reasonable mix of both.
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How are you thinking that standard technique differs from smooth technique? If you are leading the lady through a perfect heel turn in the first half of a left turn, that might be standard technique that isn't smooth technique, but it might be legitimately invigilated against too, depending on the American style syllabus being used.
 
Hedwaite said:
This stupid crap- (the subject matter, not the opinions contained therein) this is why I don't compete.
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Competition is often like doing and being judged in some activity with some artificial limits set, such as a three-legged race where the color of the clothing of runners/contestants are also used by judges somewhat arbitrarily to handicap the score/time. Some people don't care for the criterias/rules/mechanisms and others thrive on them. Entry is optional.

Court systems (which for many people are not optional) often work like this as well. Smart lawyers look to get their clients in favorable venues and judges. As the participants get better grasp of the system, the game factor often overshadow the justice factor... and at some point there are kangaroo courts.


Disclaimer: My writings are my opinion and may or may not reflect that of others.
 
Terpsichorean Clod said:
I saw this recently. Yes, they were sticking to the smooth syllabus. But they were dancing only the closed hold figures. And the prep step at the beginning was pretty noticeable. ;) I was surprised that the judges actually called the offending couples over and gave them an ultimatum - if the judges were to recall them to the next round, they had to promise to break hold.

Anyone else actually see this happen?
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I'd be curious to know what level they were dancing at and what dance they were doing, and, of course, which competition it was. And what exactly was it that the invigilator said to them, specifically which rule were they accused of violating? I know of cases where competitors have been warned of infractions by the invigilator. In each case they were handed a printed sheet of paper with a list of rules with check-marks next to the ones they had violated.

The DVIDA Silver Smooth Foxtrot syllabus has a total of ZERO figures in open position. All 15 figures are done in closed hold. We put some made-up (non-syllabus) figures into our routine at my teacher's insistence so as to look like we were dancing at the same level as everyone else on the floor who were doing open figures, presumably figures from another (non-DVIDA) syllabus, or made-up stuff. The open work is totally allowed by the NDCA rules, as long as it's not more than 50% of the routine, but then so is the 100% closed-hold DVIDA routine. I'd hate to think that if I were doing a strict DVIDA silver smooth foxtrot that there's an invigilator out there somewhere (or even a judge) who would have a problem with that. Now an open gold routine danced entirely in closed hold I could see as being legitimately underscored by the judges since they're not demonstrating as full a range of movement as are the open couples.
 
dbk said:
My best guess at what's really going on here: comps hire a bunch of strongly International dancers to judge, who proceed to judge the Smooth floor through Standard lenses. Dancing Smooth with solid Standard technique will help you no matter the judge, but now couples with good Standard technique but zero Smooth skills are getting marked above couples with a reasonable mix of both.
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A good frame and good movement occurs whether one is in separated or contact position. There is no smooth technique or
standard technique . . . there is technique. Smooth adds fluidity of hands which is also in standard but not too as much a degree especially at the lower levels on which this thread is based.

Perhaps . . .
To me the goal may be to force the AM to separate from the pro in pro/am. As a result, the am must hold their own balance, generate their own frame, and do the proper movement on their own. In closed, a good pro can hold their student's balance; a pro can hold their frame solid leading to a better student frame; and a pro can overdrive a student for bigger movement (and provide a direct contact/communication for better swing, sway, rotation, rise, fall, alignments, etc.). This is also true for AM/AM couples if one is better in one area of dance then the other.

Although . . . in reality . . . I suspect . . .
Any experienced judge probably could spot the AM deficiencies whether they are in closed or open making it a moot point.
 
Well, there are certain rotary/shaping techniques specific to smooth that often standard-focused dancers are not so good at - but they are the same thing in principle, just applied in a more extreme way, perhaps?
 
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One of the couples was at least novice level standard. The events in question were syllabus level. I'm friends with the couples who were involved. I watched them dance. I saw the judge call them over. I talked to them immediately afterward. And I watched them dance their modified choreography in the next round.
 
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