Is Pro Am becoming a sport of only the wealthy?

[raindance]

I personally just avoid the money through me and straight to the organizer for tax reasons. I also will not accept credit card for comps or showcases. Must be cash or check.

Errr... aren't you the one that claimed those were wholesale prices??? If you are just collecting money to hand over to the organizer (which sounds fine to me, for the record), and not wanting it to be part of your business expenses, then that sure doesn't sound like a "you buy at wholesale and resell at retail" situation.

(I really don't mean to pick on you, and it truly sounds like you handle things fine with your students. I just get hung up on the word wholesale in this context. I'll let it drop now.)

 

[GinaN]

in the end, it all boils down to this; what we are arguing about is my money....mine, the student's... not your skill, your entitlement, my level of gratitude, understanding, difficultness.....my money....if you want it, particularly if you want lots of it...you don't have to do anything you don't want to do...but I set the conditions under which I am going to be parted with it...I just do....

now, if you have your line in the sand and students are a dime a dozen and no one is going to tell you how to do your job or how to set your pricing, great...good for you...you should have that right

likewise, no one gets to tell me that I need to toss them 10k without knowing why, or whether or not I can do something to make it less...sorry no one is that good or talented or noble or whatever...no one.....my view, and my money...and I don't need my pro to do math for me....the good news is you have the freedom to not be my pro ...

Yes to every single word...

But I'd add that it doesn't have to be a lot of money for all of this apply.

If there is a markup / difference in price (whatever you want to call it) from what I could be paying if I were to just do it myself, I want to know what it is, and what I get extra (if anything) for that extra money.

 

[Dancing Irishman]

I personally just avoid the money through me and straight to the organizer for tax reasons. I also will not accept credit card for comps or showcases. Must be cash or check.

Really? What tax are you avoiding? As long as you have appropriate documentation for the expense, it should be very straightforward to report it as an expense on your schedule C and have the tax impact be zero.

 

[jump'n'jive]

Why even bother when I can have funds go directly to organizer via certified funds. I have open book pricing so I'm not afraid for my students to know true costs of things.

I like to keep my taxes as simple as possible as well :lol:

 

[SwayWithMe]

This person is most certainly NOT an accountant. She probably took a couple of bookkeeping classes in high school or at the coco and fancies herself an accountant. She's a bookkeeper - maybe. But she probably works for cheap, so...

If only ANY of that were true. I don't really want to discuss her any further, but suffice it to say that I need to check the numbers carefully, and without transparent comp pricing I can't tell what I'm actually supposed to be paying. I don't think any of her invoices have been correct first try.

It's been far easier the times I've been the only one going to a comp and I've just paid people directly.

 

[sbrnsmith]

first pro the check was written to him....only him...didn't go well (transparent pricing, he did entries most of the time...sometimes went well sometimes didn't)
second pro; always separate checks, worked fine (we both worked the entries but he would fill them out and send them in...worked great)
third pro; haven't competed yet, sounds like I will write one check, and he will fill out the entries seems like it will be just fine

I'm in the situation of your second pro- it works for me...he's been completely transparent in his fees and costs...I just don't like the password-protected comp package/fees, because in my particular situation, there is no added costs from the pro- and I just want to know how much I'm paying...as others have noted...it is not unreasonable when you are spending thousands of dollars on a hobby...
I am fascinated by how easy it is to get totally addicted to the world of pro/am dancing. When I started dancing 4 years ago, I had no idea that this world existed. I just wanted to dance. I immediately got hooked and while I am fortunate to be able to balance the costs of this very costly hobby, I do realize many are not...however, I am completely shocked at the costs....again, I feel I have to add this disclaimer- I am in no way stating that I begrudge the pros whatever they earn, or make light of their hard work and their amazing accomplishments which mere mortals like the rest of us can only dream of....but there is no way around it- the costs are high and those that choose to be a part of it have to decide how much they can pay...I was actually amazed and speechless the first time I was told that I have to split the cost of pros expenses/food/hotel/flight/babysitting/pet care/ time away from studio/etc...because seriously in which universe does this even happen? Having said that, I realize it is a choice I am making. One day if I decide it is too much, I will simply stop. Or if I decide a comp can't tell me their pricing- I simply won't go to that one....if a pro gives me markups that I can't understand, I will switch to another that will respect me and the fact that I choose him to hand over my hard earned money...in the end it is about respect...

 

[debmc]

I agree with virtually everything posted in the last few pages and I wish I was able to express it as well. I think the bottom line is that it is a lot of money and it is okay to decide if the payments required make sense to us as ADULT students. For the record... My pro's rates are very reasonable and he does not hide comp price lists from me or mark them up. I pay for his expenses, organizers charges and pros fees... And I have never tried to talk his fees down. But I can look at some of the fees out there ... As I did earlier.. And say that this doesn't make sense to me and therefore I wouldn't dance with someone who charged that amount. And ditto, pros can say that they deserve that fee and charge whatever they want. At the end of the day .., as I finish my shift plus overtime cuz I'm working my heart out to try to cover all the varied costs of proam.. I do get to decide what I will spend that hard earned money on, and pros get to decide what they feel their value is and why. We all get to decide what is right for us. Jumpnjive gave an example that he marks prices up to cover child care and dog sitting...that would not be okay with me. But if his students are fine with that, then that's what's important. Perhaps because I have an independent pro, the whole mark up of comp costs does not make sense to me. Pros have every right to do it.. I have every right to not dance with someone who does that.. And with that I say a special secret thank you that my pro does not do that!

 

[jump'n'jive]

Err I don't itemize doggie day care on my final bill. It's built into my fees as a whole. What and where I choose to spend my money is on me. My point is how we pros decide to price ourselves has different variables. I can name three pros and three studios and no one charges the same rate to do pro am. We all have our own formula that works for us.

 

[JANATHOME]

This seemed like a good place to put this... I had a coaching lesson last night and was talking with the coach/judge afterwards about Blackpool coming up. So she told me that they have introduced pro/am on a donation level at Blackpool. That they invite about 6 top level pro/am couple to compete, and they dance solo on the floor, the fee is 15K for a 5 dance. So really it is not a competition at all but an experience.

The 15K goes into the pool of winning for the pros. As we discussed this she noted that a pro lady that is rather wealthy will do this for the opportunity to dance Blackpool where 15K to a wealthy lady is nothing, like 500 to us not so wealthy and the dollars benefit the pros... They consider it not an entry fee but a donation.

I found it all rather interesting as to what one will spend for an experience.
Not for me, but I can see it happening for others.

LOL pro wanted to know if I was up for a donation.... Big no for me!!!

 

[DanceMentor]

Earlier in my dancing, people that started out in clubs doing swing, hustle, salsa would often also take lessons at dance studios, and those same people would become the future pros. Not nearly as many started out dancing as children.

Now, for better or worse, there are often some very well financed children who take lots of lessons, compete, and earn titles. That is more the profile these days of a pro, or soon to be pro. Additionally, the percentage of American born pros is much lower than when I started.

 

[Loki]

The day I consider 15K chump change, I'll pay your way to Blackpool, JAH.

 

[fascination]

for me, the 15k isn't so much the issue...I have it....and I have blown nearly that much on a comp before....but I would never consider doing this unless, by all reasonable measures, I was a truly awesome dancer...and I say that as a respectably good dancer....because I think it would be truly unfortunate that someone with a big ego and a deep pocket would think it was a good idea to represent pro/am dancing at a place like Blackpool unless they were representing it exceedingly well

 

[3wishes]

HA! Janathome, if i were to "donate" 15K for a 5 dance at Blackpool,,,,I want a tax deduction letter for the IRS (yes, even if it's Blackpool)....just sayin, the cynical and comic mind of me is working overtime today.

 

[JANATHOME]

LOL, as a CPA I can tell you the letter would be useless as they would not qualify for a non profit organization that would fit into the IRS guidelines... Call it donation or not, it is just funds the wealthy will spend.

Yet on another note, I remember the year I attended Holiday and was in the stands watching the final A's pro/am open event. I felt that these pro/am ladies were no less impressive than watching a pro final. If by invite only I would expect to see a good representation of pro/am....

Guess we will have to wait and see.

 

[Kelly Long]

I know that I am stretching it to do pro am... lessons, coachings, costumes, competitions add up to a lot in one year. As I continue to do this I am discovering that what I spend is minimal compared to other competitors out there...who do multiple styles, comps every month, new dresses every comp, coaching with the best, several lessons per week, top pros, etc, etc. Will this sport eventually be just for the wealthy? Is there anything we can do to make it affordable for all?

I posted in this forum around summertime last year when I was laid off from my high paying job and was forced to stop dancing for a while. I felt like my life was over. I haven't posted since summer, but it was at that sad time that the most amazing thing happened.

There is a local studio here in Virginia beach and the owners were going out of the country to visit family in Russia for a few weeks. As just an acquaintance they asked if I would sign people into classes a few times and week and could practice free of charge in return. I was unemployed so I thought, why not! I did a great job during that time and upon their return they offered a trade with me. They asked if I would be willing to do marketing in exchange for lessons with the male pro. I am a top level open gold dancer, so finding the right teacher can be a challenge, so I accepted right away.

Everything has worked out wonderfully. I take two lessons per week, attend classes and parties for free, and even though I have found a job in my field since then, I continue to work for them because it allows me to continue to dance, and it helps grow the studio wih great owners. I never imagined this would work out so well. My teacher and I have won our last two competitions and we are getting ready to compete at millennium.

So as if that's not enough, there was also the problem of costuming. As a part of bringing people and new faces into the studio, I recommended we get one of the big name dress makers
To do a trunk show and make it a fun event. We invited Dress4dance from
nJ to come
And the event was such a huge success that I negotiated a working sponsorship with the owner. I am a promotions and event coordinator for Dress4dance in addition to a vendor and distributor and I receive dresses in compensation.

So I am living proof that where there is a will there is a way. I was in my lowest spot, but as a combat veteran I refused to let it stop me. I work my butt off doing all three jobs, and I am so grateful for how things have progressed. But it took a lot of calling and being told "no" before the right people said yes. If you're interested in something like this, let me know and I'd be happy to help more of you achieve your dreams as well.

Kelly long