Is the timing for on1 style REALLY Quick Quick Slow?

[PsychoSalsaGuy]

I'm going to make a big assumption about the definition of a slow. So please correct me if I'm wrong. From what I have understood in my 5 years of various dance classes from dozens of teachers a slow is a step that takes two beats to complete. If you complete your step in one beat, then that is a quick.

But in Salsa danced on1, we change weight on the 1, the 2, and the 3, then we slowly progress to the 5, then step quickly on the 6 and the 7, followed again by a slow progression to the 1.

So if we insist that the 1 and the 5 are quicks rather than slows then isn't the on1 timing really qqq(hold),qqq(hold)?
let's see...
1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.
q.q.q...q.q.q...


Maybe I'm wrong though because the way I dance on1 I put my foot down on 3 and on 7, but I don't completely shift my weight to that foot until 4 or 8. that would make the timing qqs. I don't know of any on1 instructors that teach you to step that way though.


on2 for sure IS indeed QQS QQS. Right? Wait... let me see...

1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.
q.q..s..q.q..s..

That's right, right? You don't really actually honestly step ON 3 and ON 7 right? My on2 teacher said that he steps a bit later, even on the 4 and the 8. That would definitely make the third step a slow.

If someone wanted to call out on1 timing they way they teach you that you should step, shouldn't it be...
1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.
s.q.q...s.q.q...
Slow (starting on 8 ) Quick Quick, Slow (starting on 4) Quick Quick?

or at least...
1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.
..q.q.s...q.q.s.
Quick (on beat 2) Quick Slow, Quick (on beat 6) Quick Slow?

Because you start your slow movement on the 8 and the 4 and finish it on the 1 and the 5. So the first step is actually the END of a slow step, right?

But that way you are counting on2 and not counting on your break step!

I've got to be wrong here... but if I'm not, it seems to me that many on1 salsa instructors (at least with the novice salsa instructors at my dance studio) took on2 teaching and just shifted the beat by 1, but decided that they would call the timing the same. They didn't realize that when you shift the break step, you HAVE to shift the timing.

If this is true, it gives one more bullet to the "on2 is more correct" side. But I've got to be wrong about it so you on2 people don't get all huffy just yet.

 

[tangotime]

But in Salsa danced on1, we change weight on the 1, the 2, and the 3, then we slowly progress to the 5, then step quickly on the 6 and the 7, followed again by a slow progression to the 1.

We are in reality changing it on 4.. the "3 " is used to bring the non supporting leg into position,for a change of weight on 4.... this is exactly why i do not like the numerical count only ( if used, then state that there are 4 beats )

The fluidity of motion in all dances, is determined by HOW we use the allocated time.. of course we can change things for emphasis, but this can be a dangerous practice if the music is not understood .

 

[PsychoSalsaGuy]

We are in reality changing it on 4.. the "3 " is used to bring the non supporting leg into position,for a change of weight on 4....

Yeah, this is how I dance. I kinda figured.

I wonder if this is too much detail to teach to the beginner class I'm teaching on Saturday. I mean how you change your weight on 3/4, not the debate over the qqs/sqq timing.

 

[tangotime]

Yeah, this is how I dance. I kinda figured.

I wonder if this is too much detail to teach to the beginner class I'm teaching on Saturday. I mean how you change your weight on 3/4, not the debate over the qqs/sqq timing.

Simple.... Just say " Q Q S " and then give the beat value .

 

[sweavo]

the way I dance on1 I put my foot down on 3 and on 7, but I don't completely shift my weight to that foot until 4 or 8. that would make the timing qqs. I don't know of any on1 instructors that teach you to step that way though.

This is what I do, though the weight change doesn't wait until 4, it just doesn't complete until 4. The only person I've encountered theching this in the flesh is Stanley Chen, former NZ salsa champ, who is teaching in my town right now. I picked up this idea from the forums. So there are reasons you might think it's QQQ(hold):

1) the foot does indeed go down on beat 3. But the step is not complete because the weight is not transferred
2) the weight doesn't wait until beat 4 to start transferring But it's certainly not immediate on count 3
3) on 4 (once the weight is transferred) it's common to pick up the next foot ready for the 1. But that doesn't mean that it's the start of a slow step incorporating 4 and 1.

(I'm counting 1-to-4 because the discussion is the same no matter which half of the basic we're on)

Like Terence I would advise teaching it as a slow, emphasising the separation of foot placement and weight transfer, then later allowing a smoothing of placement and transfer into a single movement.

Beginners are more receptive than improvers to this kind of detail, because improvers are already turning into turnpattern fetishists who will be less interested in proper foundations.

 

[tangotime]

snip

because improvers are already turning into turnpattern fetishists who will be less interested in proper foundations.

SOOOOOOOO true !!

 

[PsychoSalsaGuy]

Beginners are more receptive than improvers to this kind of detail, because improvers are already turning into turnpattern fetishists who will be less interested in proper foundations.

Thank you so much sweavo. You are always so helpful.

I always thought this myself. You give me some ammunition to defend myself on Saturday. I always get into trouble when I try to teach the beginners too much detail, but not from the students. I get it from the teachers. They don't believe in giving detail EVER, unless the student specifically asks for it. They pretty much jump straight into turnpattern teaching on day one.

 

[sweavo]

I always get into trouble when I try to teach the beginners too much detail, but not from the students. I get it from the teachers. They don't believe in giving detail EVER, unless the student specifically asks for it. They pretty much jump straight into turnpattern teaching on day one.

You can sell it to the students too. Tell them no-one teaches this stuff until it's too late, but it's what sets apart the people who are really DANCING. Tell them to take a look on the social floor and see who has got it and who hasn't. Make like it's one of the closely guarded secrets of all great salseros. Don't lay it on too thick, but a small amount of a feeling of Ancient Wisdom or trade secret about it will prick up people's ears a little.

 

[Josh]

The problem with teaching this to beginners is that, seriously, unless you get a talented group of people, you're lucky if they can even put their foot in the right place. Honestly, this detail is essential to good dancing, but a beginners class just isn't the place to do it. I want to say you should do it, and you can try and see what happens, just be prepared to get blank stares, bored people, and a diminished class size the following week.

Or give them a little bit of info to whet their appetites, and then teach a special class or have them take a private lesson to learn more.

 

[Josh]

Oh, and regarding your original post, yes, you're right that the weight change happens gradually over 3/4, which is what keeps the body moving slowly over the foot and keeps the dance smooth. QQS or 1-2-34 is just an approximation of what our feet do, and we should be more concerned with timing the body. Dancing is SO easy in this respect, that we time our bodies and we just let our feet land under it, we just don't know how to accept that early on in our training unfortunately.

 

[PsychoSalsaGuy]

Well, this is a crash course. I don't have a regular class. I only get to teach about once every other month.

Dancing is SO easy in this respect, that we time our bodies and we just let our feet land under it, we just don't know how to accept that early on in our training unfortunately.

PRECISELY! So many people at our studio don't dance with their feet under them. They are never taught early on that they need to worry about moving their bodies. Instead they are taught how to move their feet, as if their bodies follow their feet. So wrong. And it's no wonder people fall all over the place in the advanced class.

This is exactly what I'm going to teach my beginners. I have a new way of teaching the basic step. I'm not going to show them the steps for the salsa basic. Heehee. I'm going to show them how to step first by having them move their body forward without moving their feet, then right before they fall over move their left foot to catch them. Their feet hitting the floor has to stop their body. If it doesn't stop their body, then they haven't gaged the size of the step properly. Too big of a step and they'll have to push with their right leg to get their body over their left foot. Too little of a step and their foot won't stop them. If they add energy to their right foot they'll lift up or bounce. If they add energy to their left leg, they'll stomp. I'll make sure that they learn how to just let their feet land. Then I'll have them return back with two steps , and go backwards. Then repeat. Haha. They will accidentally learn the salsa basic by learning proper rock steps. Salsa really is just walking after all. Once I tell them that they have just learned the basic, I'll break down the timing.

I figure that once they learn how to keep their feet UNDERNEATH their bodies, they will be able to dance quicker and learning the other steps like right turn and cross body lead will go faster. I hope so anyway because learning to rock step right is going to take more time than just learning the 6 steps of a salsa basic + some rules they inevitably break.

I suspect that I will get some more experienced dancers from the country, swing and ballroom crowd in my class. I hope so because 1st, some of them need to learn to keep their feet underneath. And 2nd, they will learn much quicker, and they might be able to help out the new dancers.

 

[salsamad]

PRECISELY! So many people at our studio don't dance with their feet under them. They are never taught early on that they need to worry about moving their bodies. Instead they are taught how to move their feet, as if their bodies follow their feet. So wrong. And it's no wonder people fall all over the place in the advanced class.

Ah yes the dreaded move your feet and you are doing salsa

Took me far too long to realise the error of this and then try to change my bad habits. Getting this accross at beginners level crucial and even if they don't get it just knowing what they are aiming for is good.

 

[Don Silver]

Thank you so much sweavo. You are always so helpful.

I always thought this myself. You give me some ammunition to defend myself on Saturday. I always get into trouble when I try to teach the beginners too much detail, but not from the students. I get it from the teachers. They don't believe in giving detail EVER, unless the student specifically asks for it. They pretty much jump straight into turnpattern teaching on day one.

Details are fine, and the art of teaching is figuring out what matters and what doesn't at any level. What you leave out is almost more important than what you teach, because beginners can't take it all in at once, and more advanced students still can only make so many adjustments in a day.

Great instructors learn to ignore some issues and focus on the issues that help the student the most, even if they cringe inside about a few other issues.

The issue with details is the fun factor. Until someone is enjoying themselves at some level, they won't continue attending classes/taking lessons. You can include as much detail as you wish, but once the process becomes "work", 80% of the guys glaze over.

A few students have dreams of being great dancers, but most don't start that way. They think "just a few lessons, and I'll be amazing..." Then your reality sinks in that they have to practice weight change and they were really thinking about holding a partner.

Your details may be perfect, and may get them to becoming a superior dancer X months down the road, but if another instructor has more fun in the process, you'll lose them, even if the others methods are less effective compared to yours.

One early teaching mistake many make is believing their students are as interested as they are in the details. So teach what you want, and evaluate the reactions. You may find a better way to teach something.

Also note that experienced instructors often have two, three or more methods for teaching the same thing. Students vary in their background and stronger instructors can approach the same issue from more than one point of view, and they adjust based on the class response.

Let us know how it works for you and the response. I'm always looking for better/different ways to teach the foundational moves.

 

[nowhiteshoes]

The only person I've encountered theching this in the flesh is Stanley Chen, former NZ salsa champ, who is teaching in my town right now.

hey sweavo, where abouts is he teaching?

 

[tangotime]

Thats exactly what I teach ( and most ballroom trained teachers ),, the distribution of weight from a Q to a Slow is quite common in ballroom.. ...

The technique of controlling leg speed ,is what makes the distinction between " smooth " and a forced action .
Fluidity in motion, is at the very core of weight transference .