Is there a good explanation of Naveira and Salas' tango analysis?

dchester said:
Would you elaborate more on how you define Same direction and Opposite direction in this system?

Basically, I'm having trouble understanding why going from parallel to cross system forces a change in the direction (ex: row 1 vs row 4 in your chart).
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I don't want to get even more formal, but it's easy to see this in an example. Imagine that you're on your left foot. Then making a cross step moves you to the left and making an open step (think of it as a side step) moves to the right. If you change your feet and you're on your right foot, it's exactly the opposite, open step moves you to the left and cross step moves you to the right. Well, keeping your partner's foot and step (and direction) fixed, that means exactly that moving from parallel to cross feet system forces change of direction.

LadyLeader said:
But I get my brain twisted here....
When I started to dance we had a figure where both leader and follower were doing the ocho movements but to different directions.

Should it be like this? or am I puting it up wrongly?

C/C parallell opp dir
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If by different directions you mean one doing back ocho and other front ocho, that's not what I mean by direction. The directions (in my sense) in this case are the same: the partners are both moving to the right or to the left.
If however, by directions you mean what I mean, and both partners are doing ochos in opposite directions, that's possible only in cross feet system, so the entry in my table is correct: C/C, cross feet, opp. dir.
 
AndaBien said:
I do think it's necessary for tango leaders to understand a structure of the dance, but there are other structures. A structure of dance is ultimately only a definition, a collection of categories. I use one that has much fewer elements, and I can explain it in much fewer words.
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So could please do it? I'm quite eager to hear about it. I'm particularly interested in how it is possible to have much fewer elements than two ( namely cross and open step) :cool:

dchester said:
The "structure" that I use, consists (at the most elemental level) of foot movements, weight changes, and pivots. The crossing steps in Borisvian's model (assuming I understand him correctly), are diagonal steps in my model.
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Certainly it's very desirable to have an analysis at more elemental level, such analysis would work at a micro level and would be particularly helpful in improving one's technique.
( I wouldn't use a term such as "diagonal step" though, because then you'd have define "diagonal" with respect to what, the squares on the floor perhaps ? ;))
The goal of the open/cross step analysis is different and much more modest: to give a beginner a rough visual idea as to what tango and tango improvisation is.
 
borisvian13 said:
I don't want to get even more formal, but it's easy to see this in an example. Imagine that you're on your left foot. Then making a cross step moves you to the left and making an open step (think of it as a side step) moves to the right. If you change your feet and you're on your right foot, it's exactly the opposite, open step moves you to the left and cross step moves you to the right. Well, keeping your partner's foot and step (and direction) fixed, that means exactly that moving from parallel to cross feet system forces change of direction.
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What a wonderful demonstration of the futility of this analysis.
You know it's back to front, or upside down or something.
Legs follow the body, there should be no such thing as a forced
change of direction: you as the dancer decide the change of direction.

Enough!

borisvian13 said:
If by different directions you mean one doing back ocho and other front ocho, that's not what I mean by direction. The directions (in my sense) in this case are the same: the partners are both moving to the right or to the left.
If however, by directions you mean what I mean, and both partners are doing ochos in opposite directions, that's possible only in cross feet system, so the entry in my table is correct: C/C, cross feet, opp. dir.
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Oh - there was more!

I rather thought that if both partners were doing ochos (or back crosses
and front crosses) in the cross feet system they would be going round and
around (rather like this analysis) and on that basis they would be both
going to their right or to their left but essentially rotating on the spot
like a carousel and not going anywhere at all.

As if we haven't enough crosses already in tango you've invented another.
Now when feet cross over an imaginary line it's a cross step. Add that
to inline crosses, outside crosses, front crosses, back crosses, the cross
foot system plus Alberto Paz's rather ludicrous inside forward crosses
and outside backward crosses, it's enough to get anyone cross just
trying to decipher it all.

For sanity's sake, it's best not to think about it in such terms - just dance.
 
JohnEm said:
Would you care to explain what happens in such a class
and what experimentation is taught?
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I'm sure this is just an exercise in futility, but for those who may be interested at some point, the kind of class to look for is one (sometimes at a festival) where you might encounter this kind of concept is where the topic may seem odd, like "Getting out of a Rut". Those are the kind of classes where you'll tend to explore improvisation and not learn steps.

In the particular class I am thinking of that deals with some of the information from Castro's book, it was a technique class taught by a local instructor who dances Nuevo. Part of the class was spent working on general technique, part was spent doing exercises involving people playing with the open step, front/back cross concept. No steps were taught. It was a technique class, it was assumed you knew how to lead various vocabulary. The vocabulary was not the topic.

Not all people learn in the same way. If learning only by experimentation works for a person, great, there's sure to be dance partners for them. I don't think it's that way for most people. In my experience, most people get lost unless they have at least a little direction, especially earlier on.
 
JohnEm said:
Would you care to explain what happens in such a class and what experimentation is taught?
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I think, by definition, experimentation can not be taught; it can only be encouraged. If musicians can be taught to improvise, then dancers can also be taught to do that. Whether they are or not is a different question.

I try to teach creativity, which might be the same as experimentation. I explain a variety of basic options and urge students to think about what else can be done with them. I also provide a very basic step (i.e., plain walking forward, for the leader) and ask my students to use nothing but that step and give their partner a complete and nuanced dance using only that step.

In other disciplines they say that creativity is demanded by providing constraints. The more constraints there are, the more creativity is required. Walk into an art store and come out with nothing but paper and scissors. Then create something using only that. If one survives that, the student probably got quite creative.
 
Another possibility: identify a standard sequence for every leader in class. Urge leaders to create something contrary to that sequence every time they think about using it. Can they get through an entire dance without ever leading their favorite sequence?
 
AndaBien said:
In other disciplines they say that creativity is demanded by providing constraints. The more constraints there are, the more creativity is required. Walk into an art store and come out with nothing but paper and scissors. Then create something using only that. If one survives that, the student probably got quite creative.
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I think this is the reason I have started to appreciate crowded pistas!
 
borisvian13 said:
If however, by directions you mean what I mean, and both partners are doing ochos in opposite directions, that's possible only in cross feet system, so the entry in my table is correct: C/C, cross feet, opp. dir.
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You are right, thanks! :D

I did rephrase your/Castros words for an ordinary ocho to clear my thinking. ...

C/O cross same
If I now want to change the first category, I need to change one more category and keep the third stable.

In my example I wanted to change first and third category => the second will stay as it is. I get your line then....

C/C cross opp


So far so good, but I need to think some more about the options excluded from the universe of movements. ..... or maybe I should order the book!
 
Dave Bailey said:
Funnily enough, I did this exercise as part of last Sunday's class - "mirrored ochos", extending to become "mirrored giros".
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I have been doing that for years, but there seems to be a shortage of skilled leaders who can actually use it whilst dancing..

but you cant have mirrored giros you'd just crash into each other..:lol:

what i think you mean is rotational symmetry....
 
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