Is there a good explanation of Naveira and Salas' tango analysis?

For me, I have a "system" that works for me (somewhat similar to your #2 moving co-ordinate system). What I then try to do is to learn other systems, and then try to "translate/transform" aspects of them into my "native" system.

The reason I suspect why so many of these systems don't work for lots of people is because we all have out own "internal" way of viewing things, and many of these systems (while very useful and logical to some people), don't directly translate into our own internal view of things.

It's just my opinion though.

;)

I suspect there are a lot of equivalent definitions. I did think of another one that seemed to be also equivalent and more similar to Castros which was just that at each point either I can step to my left or my right, and that my follower can step to her left and her right. Which gives
{left/left, left/right, right/left, right/right}. Which you can then expand for choice of back cross and front cross, and also for different starting positions to get to the same 36 steps that Castro uses.
 
I'm left wondering just what use is this methodology? Are leaders going out for an evening's dancing with a quota of possibilities to try out? Do they keep notes? It sounds rather like train spotting.

Genuinely puzzled ...
 
Personally when I dance I'm always to some degree thinking (and feeling), about what to do next, about what's coming up in the music, about the space around me in the milonga, etc. I kind of do it automatically though like when I drive my car. That means I'm less likely to improvise, or more likely to keep redoing the things I always do. With this methodology I'm hoping for clarity of thought. I now know that I only have four options at each point (plus lots of embellishments, nuances). With practice I hope that I can think in these terms when I dance and that it'll be as automatic as before.

[Edit: Thinking a bit more about it I think I dance reactively which I haven't thought of before; I'm quite influenced by say music, the energy in the previous step, the decrease/increase in space in the milonga, what my partner is doing, what move the person in front of me is doing, etc. and I think I drive the same way!

And this can help improvisation but also hinder it as we're often conditioned to respond in the same way to stimulus. Mauricio Castro mentions it at the start of his second book with various examples (going into a lift, passing someone on the street). But I'm reminded of a silly game on the internet which is a men's room/toilets and there's already a guy at one of the stalls in a random position and you have to say where you will go - and it's amazing that almost everyone chooses the same option]
 
I'm left wondering just what use is this methodology? Are leaders going out for an evening's dancing with a quota of possibilities to try out? Do they keep notes? It sounds rather like train spotting.

Genuinely puzzled ...

iN a workshop situation, with a Dutch teacher, we explored "randomising" the next step,
by taking five steps then someone calling out the leaders or the followers next step; and variations of this; sometimes your follower would call out the next step (open/back across/front across using Castro terminology) so it can serve as a vehicle for exploring possibilities.
 
Sometimes I choose a step that I don't use very much and want to become more familiar with, and make it my thematic step for a whole evening. By using it more and looking for opportunities to use it, I can elevate it in my step vocabulary.
 
I'm currently trying out various types of 'limitation' exercises (only recently thanks to my teacher) to practice this. They're surprisingly hard.

In the past I've also tried something similar to bordertangoman where the follower shouts 'change' when she feels you're doing a repetition and you have to change it to something else. It's really fun.

And... does anyone else find they keep doing steps they don't like? Maybe it's just me, but some evenings I get an idea into my head and just can't stop doing it through the evening. If it's a good idea that's great, but sometimes it's something really irritating :)
 
I can see the benefit of adding new movements to one's dance vocabulary, and in a lesson or workshop setting can see the value in being systematic about exploring possibilities; but I can't go so far as to want to provide a nomenclature for every possible combination of movements with any serious attempt at using them all in social dancing.

The possibilities are so numerous, that a smallish sub-set will do me very well, thank you, but I'd concede that it should probably be a bigger sub-set than my present vocabulary.
 
... but I can't go so far as to want to provide a nomenclature for every possible combination of movements with any serious attempt at using them all in social dancing...

I agree. I could be that one becomes more interested in nomenclature than in dancing.

I only use a few basic steps, but I do them in many different ways. I could subdivide the basic categories, but that doesn't mean I'm doing a greater variety of movements.
 
I agree. I could be that one becomes more interested in nomenclature than in dancing.

I only use a few basic steps, but I do them in many different ways. I could subdivide the basic categories, but that doesn't mean I'm doing a greater variety of movements.

but occasionally knowing the her foot, x, can move forward with your foot sideways, y, can get you out of a tight corner, z,

(having said that there is stuff outside that box; syncpoated steps, eg stepping slightly earlier or later than your partner)
 
Personally, I don't think I'm doing it (trying to improve my improvisation) in order to do more steps, but more to have the freedom and technique to do any step if I wish.

But the question you pose, if I can take it to its extreme, that if we can have the best dance with someone with little more than a good walk, embrace and musicality then why do more, I'll have to think about.
 
To me improvisation includes anyhow the following:
*it is not planned beforehand
* different parts of the brain are activated for the improviser and for a musician using sheet music - I suppose the same for dancer who plans the figures or improvises
*my body makes decisions and I just can observe what hapend (BT & Co I am with you!)
*to improvise steps is different from improvising a whole song. If I during a song use known figures, like ocho or salida, I still consider the dance as improvised. Step combinations should be totally unknown and fresh; no sequencies here.

I totally love the split to practica and milonga within tango! I think of it like this today:
During the practica you train your body, push your limits and get understanding for the movements.
During the milonga I leave the brain and let my body take over at the level I can dance at that evening. When in form, I just love the crowded milongas which force me to handle the variations of the space and the music, without any thoughts!

... I also think that it should be possible to describe all the steps leading there. In an orchestra a conductor has to be able to 'teach' an orchestra his interpretation of a piece of music, even if the audience just benefit from the emotional experience. What he teaches or describes to them is more than the notes which they know already. Or a DJ can choose different music at different times in an evening to affect the emotions in the dancers. In the same way I believe a teacher should be able to teach or describe all the facets of how to improvise (Steps and all the nuances you describe) with exercises just like teaching anything else. It's then up to the student to practice, incorporate into their dance and experience it for themselves.

So I would like to reframe your posting and say: what I need to do during the Practica to let my body take over at the Milonga?

I train my body to be more precise in movements, I train figures to get used to the steps in tango vocabulary - as others have mentioned too.
I train music hearing - to distinguish more structures in the music and so get more possibilities for my feet. I also try to find ways to train my emotional system to responce to the feelings presented in a tango. I think this last one is the most important thing for improvisation! (Many others are so lucky with lot of training in music - Me so envy :( )
 
I think the comparison between AT and martial arts is actually more apt than you suspect - but AT is like boxing - the principles are ridiculously simple (step and pivot for AT, jab-cross-hook for boxing), but the way they can be combined and how they work in motion are endlessly complex and can be the study of a lifetime. And you need at least some amount of time with somebody more experienced to get a rough idea of the gestalt of the whole thing. Mauricio Castro has tried to sum up the principles of what tang is in "Tango: The Structure of the Dance", which may be helpful to other people, but for myself it was not helpful - i understood the things i had already understood before, but i wasn't able to learn things that i hadn't understood before. Again - very much like martial arts books :).
So, my short answer would be: If you just want to do something that vaguely looks like tango just imitate whatever video you like, but to actually dance tango you have to learn how to dance tango. And learning tango without feeling what a good leader/follower feels like is awfully hard - and for me i think it would be impossible. I once said that i really don't understand how leaders get the patience to learn tango - its like somebody tosses a salmon that is still alive and flopping into your lap, shows you a delicately cut piece of sashimi and tells you "see, that is what it should look like - go for it".

So, now that i have finished my rant let me be hypocrital and tell you what tango is like:

There are only three moves in tango: Stepping, Standing balanced on one foot, and pivoting on this one foot.
The followers role is to expect nothing, but if something happens she has to take this impulse and put her whole self into that one step, make it a universe, and then come to perfect rest and openness again.
The follower owns all the space between the impulses - she can do whatever adornment or variation she wants as long as she is ready to accept the next impulse and the way she shapes the couple is not breaking the connection with the leader (which often, but not always means that she has to end up at the spot the leader expects within the time that the leader expects her to get there).
The leader gives an impulse, watches her go and the followes her.
The best way to figure out if the leader is actually marking what he thinks he is marking is to dance without using the arms using just the chest lead if in close embrace or the follower watching his chest in open embrace. If he can't communicate something using only his torso he shouldn't communicate it any other way.
To rephrase korey ireland "tango is the dance of a followers obsession with a leaders shirtbuttons - she strives to always look at the buttons, be close to them, and she does whatever it takes to stay in front of them"
There are no tricks in tango - the proper lead makes a move inevitable. Anything that requires the leader to explain what the follower should do is probably not lead well (ok, this is very dogmatic - i haven't yet figured out how to lead a cross - a fearless beginner with good balance will be able to follow almost everything else, but the lead to the cross results for me in a sort of stumbling short ocho. But i think striving for this inevitability is a good idea)
All the moves (volcada, boleo,sacada, gancho, enganche) that don't look like walking are just walking, too. A gancho or an enganche is a walk interrupted by a fixed object. A sacada is a walk through a mobile object - like a saloons swinging doors. A volcada or a boleo is a walking step that is interrupted before the weight is shifted.

GSH

Looking back through the archives, I really liked this post from Gssh. (Hope I've figured out how to quote it ok..)
 
Looking back through the archives, I really liked this post from Gssh. (Hope I've figured out how to quote it ok..)
It looks like you did. That was a very good post you quoted.

:o


The way I've thought about tango is the fundamental elements are the foot move, weight change, and pivot.

I also acknowledge twisting (I've heard others refer to this as disassociation, dissociation, torsion), and vertical movement (rising and sinking), but I'm still in flux about how to categorize those two things, as I see them as more a means to accomplish a goal (the 3 fundamental elements) rather than a true goal in themselves.

Of course I do reserve the right to change my mind, as my knowledge improves.

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