Julian vs Gregorian Calendars in re Winter Solstice & Xmas

[DWise1]

Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah!

(DWise1: Do we now start the discussion about Julian vs. Gergorian calendars and what day and year Jesus might have actually been born on? )

In my Winter Solstice thread, I named the solstice as being "The Reason for the Season". Somebody finally bit.

First, I do not believe that anyone who has given the matter much serious thought still believes that Jesus was born 24/25 December in the Year One (note, there was no year zero, so the 21st century started on 01 Jan 2001, not in 2000 -- see my Millennium page at http://members.aol.com/dwise1/trivia/dennis.html) -- though I have been surprised before and no doubt will again. There is no biblical basis for that date, unlike Easter whose date does have a biblical basis. It has been suggested that, based on the practice of shepherding, Jesus would have been born some time in the Spring.

And it has also been suggested, based on historic records of Tiberius' census, that when Shorty Dennis (Dionysius Exiguous -- pardon the play on "Shorty" George, but this is a dance forum after all [grin]), created the Anno Domini reckoning of the years circa 525 CE, he made an error which threw it off by about 4 years, so that Jesus would have been born circa 4 BCE and not in 1 CE.

I'll let others argue those points (as well as whether that birth actually occured at all), because the actual date and actual event have nothing to do with the date on which Christmas is celebrated.

The Winter Solstice was an important time of year for Sun-god worshippers, because it marks the turning-point in the battle between the Sun and the Darkness and so it has become the date of the birth (or re-birth) of the Sun god. Celebration of this date and its importance and symbolism had become nearly universal by the time of the Roman Empire in the myriad of sun-god religions in the Northern Hemisphere. This led to the official Roman establishment circa 274 CE of a holiday dedicated to Sol Invictus, "The Unconquered Sun", and celebration of the birth of the Sun, Natalis Invicti, on 25 December (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus). For whatever reason(s), that date was adopted by early Christians and later was codified by the Church.

So, if the Winter Solstice is on 21/22 Dec, why then would it be celebrated on 24/25 Dec? Anyone out there know that answer?
[not wanting to give everything away]

 

[cornutt]

The Winter Solstice was an important time of year for Sun-god worshippers, because it marks the turning-point in the battle between the Sun and the Darkness and so it has become the date of the birth (or re-birth) of the Sun god. Celebration of this date and its importance and symbolism had become nearly universal by the time of the Roman Empire in the myriad of sun-god religions in the Northern Hemisphere. This led to the official Roman establishment circa 274 CE of a holiday dedicated to Sol Invictus, "The Unconquered Sun", and celebration of the birth of the Sun, Natalis Invicti, on 25 December (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus). For whatever reason(s), that date was adopted by early Christians and later was codified by the Church.

Well, of course the early Church was good at swiping pagan ceremonies and re-defining them to suit the purpose.

So, if the Winter Solstice is on 21/22 Dec, why then would it be celebrated on 24/25 Dec? Anyone out there know that answer?
[not wanting to give everything away]

You got me. I see from Wikipedia that the Romans celebrated the winter solstice on the 25th, but that would have been the 25th of the Julian calendar (is that the reason?)

 

[pygmalion]

Eh. I feel no need to bite, DWise1, since I've known of what you speak for quite a while, no offense intended.

My take? People pretty much believe in whatever they want to believe in. So I prefer to live and let live. Yes. I believe that Jesus lived and was an incredibly influential person in history. No, I don't think he was born on December 25. And no, I don't feel the need to start arguments over religious/political views of Jesus. Every religious group seems to have its own understanding and explanation, which is their privilege, IMO.

It takes not very much research to understand the significance of the winter holidays, and how the dates for commemoration of Christmas were chosen, way back when. No offense, but why does it matter? Folks who celebrate the occasion can choose to do the research and know. Or they can choose not to know. Or they can choose to know and celebrate the season anyway. Eh. It's up to them. Whatever. Live and let live.

 

[cornutt]

No offense, but why does it matter? Folks who celebrate the occasion can choose to do the research and know. Or they can choose not to know. Or they can choose to know and celebrate the season anyway. Eh. It's up to them. Whatever. Live and let live.

No offense taken, and certainly none meant. You might say that DWise1 and I are just, so to speak, trivia obsessed. :grin:

 

[diputs]

You might say that DWise1 and I are just, so to speak, trivia obsessed. :grin:

You could drop the trivia part, and the statement would still be correct!
:nope:

 

[diputs]

FYI, I am also curious what the different theories are pertaining to this.

 

[pygmalion]

@cornutt

I like trivia too. My brain is full of trivial knowledge and obscure facts. I just don't like trivia to become a bone of contention.

@diputs Try googling Saturnalia.

 

[cornutt]

FYI, I am also curious what the different theories are pertaining to this.

Theories about DWise1 and I being obsessed? We're engineers; it goes with the territory. Seriously, I'll leave off of the philoshopical aspects at this point since I really don't think DF is the place to do it (and I feel the hot gaze of moderators coming from my monitor :snake: ). I'll just mention that the way people have figured dates and years and calendars has changed a lot over the years, and it makes determining the exact date of anything that far in the past nearly impossible. For example, it's only been since the Middle Ages that most of the Western world has agreed on how many days are in each month, and what the first day of the year is.

The particular thing that we started with on this thread, the Julian vs. Gregorian calendars, goes something like this: The Romans were aware that the Earth's orbit is not an exact number of days long, and that it was roughly 365-1/4 days. As DWise1 has pointed out, keeping the calendar in line with the equinoxes and solstices was important for both religious and practical reasons back in ancient times; farmers had to know when to plant and when to harvest and so forth. However, a year with a 1/4 of a day in it is rather awkward if you want to keep the hours of the day more or less in line with the sun. Julius Caesar decreed the first calendar with the concept of a leap year, hence the Julian calendar. Its rule was that every fourth year would have an extra day, and this would average out the 1/4 extra days in Earth's orbit.

The problem was, Earth's orbit isn't exactly 365.25 days long; it's a little less, like 365.2423 or some such. So, over the years, the Julian calendar added too many leap days. It took centuries for this to be noticed, but by about 650 A.D., the Catholic church was beginning to notice that the vernal equinox was getting earlier. This was of immediate concern to the Church because it upset the formula for calculating the date of Easter, not to mention the practical problems. By 1582, the Julian calendar was ten days "slow" compared to the equinoxes and solstices; i.e., the winter solstice was occurring on December 12. So the Pope at that time, Pope Gregory (don't know the number), had the Church develop a new rule for leap years. The new rule says that every fourth year is a leap year, unless it is a year divisible by 100 but not by 400, in which case it isn't a leap year. This takes out enough leap years to keep the equinoxes and solstices on the right dates until about A.D. 2800.

The weird bit was that when the Gregorian calendar was instituted, there had to be a way to "catch up" the current calendar. The Church's way was to skip over ten days in October of 1582 -- in that year, the next day after October 4 was October 15, and the days from October 5 to October 14 simply didn't exist in that year. However, many countries didn't adopt the Gregorian calendar right away. So over the next few centuries, different countries switched over at different times, using different means to "catch up" the intervening days. You can see what kind of chaos this made fixing a date to anything that happened in Europe at the time. (Russia didn't adopte the Gregorian calendar until 1918(!), and that only happened because of the October Revolution. The real irony is that the October Revolution is remembered as such due to the Julian calendar -- on the Gregorian calendar, most of it actually occurred in November.)

 

[pygmalion]

LOL.

You want the truth? DWise1 got on my nerves last year when he "polluted" my no-Christmas-allowed thread with this same topic. Debunking Christmas beliefs to Christmas celebrators has limited value, in my view. It just hurts most people's feelings. A few might hear and respond to what's being said. But, first, I don't think this is the appropriate venue. And (a distant) second, the majority of people reading won't change their beliefs. So why? What's the point, in a forum such as this, which has no political or religious aspirations?

So yes. The whole calendar change topic IS fascinating to me. I'll leave it at that.

 

[SDsalsaguy]

The things you learn here at the DF! Who knew? :lol:

 

[Joe]

But don't we keep time/dates now by virtue of elemental decay? IIRC, a year or so ago there was an extra second or so added or subtracted to the "official" time.

 

[redhead]

Folks who celebrate the occasion can choose to do the research and know. Or they can choose not to know. Or they can choose to know and celebrate the season anyway.

When I moved here of course I had to find a new church. I always went to Russin Orthodox church, but here Greek was good for my family (same religion, just this particular church uses English so my hubby can actually understand what's going on). Anyway, I was used to celebrating Christmas on January 7th (Russian church didn't skip 13 days after the revolution), so it was weird to switch to December 25th (and that upset me... for about a day). So yeah I don't celebrate a date but the occasion. And I still call my parents on the 7th and wish them Merry Xmas.

 

[diputs]

So, if the Winter Solstice is on 21/22 Dec, why then would it be celebrated on 24/25 Dec? Anyone out there know that answer?
[not wanting to give everything away]

I have no idea what the answer is, I am just taking a guess. And as pygmalian eluded to, there are several different theories depending on who you ask.

Because Hanukkah starts on the 25th of Kislev?

Out of curiosity, I started looking at the "Jewish" Calander. Found out that it is a lunersolar or a tropical calander. I am finding all of this calendar stuff really interesting.

Apparently someone had to figure out a year zero for the Jewish calendar, so they added up all the ages of the people mentioned in the bible (old testament to christians) and determined a date of "creation" to start the dates.

Today is 22 Kislev 5766.

I am sure this alone sparked a lot fo debates. It is amazing that we can agree on anything.

 

[Medira]

Theories about DWise1 and I being obsessed? We're engineers; it goes with the territory.

*snicker* The man's got a good point there...

<- Software engineer with a father who has a degree in Engineering Physics. There's no escape for my mother and sister

When I moved here of course I had to find a new church. I always went to Russin Orthodox church, but here Greek was good for my family (same religion, just this particular church uses English so my hubby can actually understand what's going on). Anyway, I was used to celebrating Christmas on January 7th (Russian church didn't skip 13 days after the revolution), so it was weird to switch to December 25th (and that upset me... for about a day). So yeah I don't celebrate a date but the occasion. And I still call my parents on the 7th and wish them Merry Xmas.

When my grandfather was still alive, we would celebrate Christmas on the 25th for my Nana and my father's side of the family and January 7th for my Grandpa. It made for a nice extended holiday season...and another excuse to get the family together and celebrate.

 

[diputs]

I just saw a news article stating that we are going to add one second at the end of this year. Apparently the last minute of 2005 will be 61 seconds long.

So do not forget to change your clocks at midnight. And when you count down this year, remeber to start a second later.