Peaches
Well-Known Member
Oh, I wasn't referring to anyone in particular. Just the value of tradition and BsAs culture and their effect on rules, and the hard-and-fast-ness (or lack thereof) of those rules.
Keeping Your Energy Directed "Up"
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hbboogie1
New Member
Of course there are exceptions to the rule
I can agree with you that if you dance without disrupting the floor it’s acceptable no matter what the move.
The problem is it’s a show move and it’s meant to be danced big and that’s how it’s taught. How many people do you see doing them small? Really!!!!!
Ask yourself why would they teach show moves when their students can’t even comprehend walking or simple ochos? I watch week after week Tango instructors, some terrible and some the top dancers in the country all teaching the show moves to rank beginners. Go figure?
I'm perplexed by the debate over the disruptive-ness of Volcadas without a single mention of COLgadas which, in my mind have far more potential to be a problem and are spreading (at least around here) less like swine flu in the US and more like a common cold during any average winter.
Peaches
Well-Known Member
OK, then, so we agree that it's not the move per se which is the problem.
I see plenty of people doing them small; generally, the people who are already considerate of others and floorcraft. I see plenty of idiots throwing it in wherever, doing big moves that have no place for the situation...but they tend to be inconsiderate idiots regardless of what they're doing. Again, it's not the move, it's people whose discretion in these matters is lacking.
As for it being taught...I have seen plenty of moves taught that, while technically show moves (I suppose), can easily be adapted for a crowded social floor. Or that can be danced big and flashy for those occasions where there is more than enough room to spare and it doesn't matter if someone dances big. The problem is not the moves...it's the people.
Generally speaking, though, I see far more people doing them small and unobtrusive than making them disruptive. The disruptive ones are a few repeat offenders.
And I've been in workshops that were supposed to be limited to intermediate/advanced dancers, and have had rank beginners in there. Never mind that it's not fair to their partners in rotation, or flat out dangerous. (I almost got dropped one time. I'm a bit tetchy on this point.) Should the organizers have had the stones to throw them out for not being able to demonstrate mastery of basic concepts? Ideally...but we all know how well that goes.
Likewise, I've sat out from a group class because it was an "intermediate" class because I didn't figure I was ready for it as defined by the instructor. I appreciated that he established something of a minimum requirement. But as I sat on the sidelines and watched, I saw plenty of students who did not meet that minimum requirement...so what was the point, ultimately? What it came down to for me, is that I won't take a class from that teacher.
Unless you're going to establish a system where people have to "check out" of a certain level and present a cert before taking a given class, there is no way to police this. Not unless teachers want to start losing money. I'm sure plenty of students think they have mastered basic concepts just fine, which in fact they really have no clue how far they have to go. But just because some beginners take a class they probably shouldn't, and the possibility exists for them to use it without good judgment on the dance floor, is no reason to restrict the rest of us who would like the chance to add to the repertoire and explore new applications of traditional concepts.
hbboogie1
New Member
Unless you're going to establish a system where people have to "check out" of a certain level and present a cert before taking a given class, there is no way to police this. Not unless teachers want to start losing money. I'm sure plenty of students think they have mastered basic concepts just fine, which in fact they really have no clue how far they have to go. But just because some beginners take a class they probably shouldn't, and the possibility exists for them to use it without good judgment on the dance floor, is no reason to restrict the rest of us who would like the chance to add to the repertoire and explore new applications of traditional concepts.[/QUOTE]
Our best friends help a local couple who teaches by taking those beginners who show up cut them from the herd and give them beginner lessons while the rest of the group gets what they paid for.
We’ve shown up for group lessons and ended up sitting out because of that reason.
Our best friends help a local couple who teaches by taking those beginners who show up cut them from the herd and give them beginner lessons while the rest of the group gets what they paid for.
We’ve shown up for group lessons and ended up sitting out because of that reason.
I find that the best teachers do teach Volcadas and Boleos but they spend alot of time introducing the technique and teaching them small.
I have come to the conclusion that he only way you can be sure of your technique with these type of moves is if you can do them small.
The problem is some people pick up on all the showy moves; Volcadas and Back Sacadas come to mind, they practice and practise these moves get them workng but cannot introduce them within the flow of their own dance let alone the LOD.
Yes, well, the best teachers will not only teach the move, but will give you ways to use it while moving with the line of dance. But, how many of us are ready for that, especially if we are new to the game?
To me it's like people who don't use turn signals when they drive. Do you empathize with those around you, and to what extent? Or, are you totally into your "Tango Trance"?
(OK, it's possible to look like you are asleep, and yet be perfectly aware of your surroundings. I've seen older people do this in meetings! In Tango, not so much!)
To me it's like people who don't use turn signals when they drive. Do you empathize with those around you, and to what extent? Or, are you totally into your "Tango Trance"?
(OK, it's possible to look like you are asleep, and yet be perfectly aware of your surroundings. I've seen older people do this in meetings! In Tango, not so much!)
I have a lot of sympathy with this viewpoint. Many a workshop has been ruined for me because a number of the participants cannot cope with the level of the class and the problems remain unaddressed by themselves or by the teachers.
However, check out this UK teacher who has grasped the nettle of this particular problem.
http://web.archive.org/web/20110102205130/http://www.tangouk.co.uk/tangkgnrc.htm
Steve Morrall has had this system in place for over a year now. I suspect it has not lost him any money at all because he runs a range of levels of workshops and I think only the top level is "policed". Some people have been offended by being told they were not up to the workshop, others have accepted his judgements - he has a lot to say about submitting to the humility of the learning process.
http://web.archive.org/web/20100905113255/http://www.tangouk.co.uk/humblelearning.htm
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This certainly looks like a good way to solve the problem. Another way would be for the organizers to list the real pre-requisite skills needed for the class, instead of just saying intermediate level. It would also be helpful if workshops had more thorough and accurate descriptions of the classes.
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Heather2007
New Member
Yep. Ladies! Yesterday at the open air milonga at Spitalfields. Crowded. Yet, some followers insisted on doing wild beleos with heels to stop any heart. And so me: "Hey, either execute your moves with care in mind or go dance out there in the piazza" and then offering up one of my six-yard killer stares to strengthen the point. And so no, the boys are not always at fault here. It is just unfortunate that although they know how to dance a small boleo, the women feel that more eyes will be on them if the execution of such a move is done with the intention of ripping into someone's major arterly. Sadly, the beginners/non-dancers interpret this as good dancing and don't know that boleos are in fact one of the ugliest of moves, the majority of whom make it even more uglier by dancing it badly.
MONEY!!!!
bastet
Active Member
this is one of my biggest pet peeves of all...(not volcadas)...but leaders who continually ignore the input they are receiving from their partner and their partner's comfort level and just try to put whatever step they feel like it in there without "testing the water" first to gauge a partner's reaction to it.
it just makes me livid to see leads forcing follows to do ochos who I know haven't learned them yet, sacadas they haven't had any experience with, volcadas because they are "cool" and the list goes on and on.
For me, this goes back to leads (or people in general) jumping the gun, not learning how to have a good dance with smaller, simpler, more accessible movement first (so you've always got that to fall back on) and instead just going straight for the throat....grrr.:headwall:
bastet
Active Member
Peaches
Well-Known Member
OMG, yes! Oh.holy.crap...YES!!! Amen.
Sometimes, it's not as much ignoring the input, but rather not understanding the input. If I lead a step and it doesn't go as expected, my first thought is that I didn't make the lead clear enough, (and not that she can't, or chooses not to do the step).
bastet
Active Member
I can certainly understand that.
What I am talking about it leads who, after a couple of tries at something where the follow tenses up and looks "panicked", continue to attempt what they were trying to do.
Most recently, I was watching a leader lead a newer follow (who I think has got lots of potential, but she's only been dancing less than 3 months geez!) in to something he had JUST learned in another class (what i call walking sacadas- sacadas to the follows leg while they are walking in cross system) and he certainly wasn't in control of them yet, and she was panicking and getting stuck on both legs. He did this repeatedly, like more than 3 times, with the same result every time and for whatever reason just could not process her tension as "sorry -just not getting what you are leading, can we please move on?.."
She was flustered. I spoke with her later and reassured her that it was not in any way her fault.