Peaches
Well-Known Member
This seems very strange to me. I'd consider ochos and molinetes--molinetes especially--to be worlds more difficult than a cross.
La Crusada
- Thread starter Zoopsia59
- Start date
What is "Improver Level"? Doesn't that cover just about every level?
Agree with Peaches. Followers spend quite awhile perfecting ochos since they are actually rather complex, and leaders spend quite awhile learning to lead molinete properly (as well as ochos)
Well, unless he's just leading all this stuff with his arms... they can learn that pretty quick, which results in followers doing them wrong too..
I learned cross (as a follower) in lesson 1 or 2 as part of staying in front of the leader. (teacher was teaching flat-on milonguero)
BIG advantage to followers... if they are not reaching back properly, but rather falling backwards away from the leader, they will invariably NOT cross front. They will instead try to step back, maybe at some angle. If learning to include the cross from the beginning, a follower will learn about posture and proper backwards walking from the beginning.
Another advantage to followers: Learning to dance on quicks. Depending on what the leader does (ie: if he walks through the cross rather than doing a together step himself at her cross) if she doesn't go through crusada and get out of it into another back step, she'll get mowed down. (this also teaches her to transfer her weight to the left leg when crossing... its amazing how common it is for a beginner follower to cross and remain on her right leg afterwards if the leader doesn't keep moving)
Ochos may be more complicated than cruzadas, once you've learned them both, but I think cruzadas also have plenty of details that need to be ironed out, eventually.
I just think cruzadas have a mental stumbling block at first. They are certainly a regular part of tango, but a simple tango can be done without them. I think it's useful for both followers and leaders to develop some degree of dancing before I present cruzadas to them.
borisvian13
Member
I, like the vast majority, have been introduced to the cruzada during the first 2 or 3 lessons, unfortunately
I don't see any advantages in introducing the cruzada that early as people who do that teach it (in at least 95% of the cases) as a choreographed routine: the leader makes two steps outside the follower and the follower crosses ( or even worse, as part of the 8 count basic).
The cruzada should be taught after introducing the notion of a cross step, that is, a step with disassociation, or half-ocho, if want. Any time the follower has made a cross step she can be led into a cross, theoretically, at least
And the leads to any basic problem teaching tango - the ocho is taught as a fixed pattern, not as two cross steps with pivot in between. Even worse, the ocho is quite frequently taught as something one does at a fixed, big angle, usually 90 degrees.
Of course, I agree that ocho with a lot pivot is technically more demanding than the cross for the follower.... Still, I think that the general structure of the dance should be taught first, but that's my own prejudice I guess...
I don't see any advantages in introducing the cruzada that early as people who do that teach it (in at least 95% of the cases) as a choreographed routine: the leader makes two steps outside the follower and the follower crosses ( or even worse, as part of the 8 count basic).
The cruzada should be taught after introducing the notion of a cross step, that is, a step with disassociation, or half-ocho, if want. Any time the follower has made a cross step she can be led into a cross, theoretically, at least
And the leads to any basic problem teaching tango - the ocho is taught as a fixed pattern, not as two cross steps with pivot in between. Even worse, the ocho is quite frequently taught as something one does at a fixed, big angle, usually 90 degrees.
Of course, I agree that ocho with a lot pivot is technically more demanding than the cross for the follower.... Still, I think that the general structure of the dance should be taught first, but that's my own prejudice I guess
...
bordertangoman
Well-Known Member
I use a broomstick and the concept of a parallelogram; usually teach it about week eight at earliest; leaders need to be reasonably confident....followers have to be not stupid
Mario7
Member
Here's my favorite video of Arg. Tango and there isn't one single cruzada in it...at least last time I checked,.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=if8NaP5bKGo
Here's my favorite video of Arg. Tango and there isn't one single cruzada in it...at least last time I checked,.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=if8NaP5bKGo
That's very interesting. No cruzadas, and it's a very nice dance.
Here's my favorite video of Arg. Tango and there isn't one single cruzada in it...at least last time I checked,.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=if8NaP5bKGo
A lot of crossing ochos though.
Next time the subject comes up about crossing (non-pivoting) ochos, remember to post this so we don't have to explain them all over again!
At 1:23 he leads her into a cross but doesn't let her settle her weight on left foot and leads her outHere's my favorite video of Arg. Tango and there isn't one single cruzada in it...at least last time I checked,.
Mario7
Member
Yes, the three previous posts are right on..I'm glad to see that the class is paying attention... now, with those beautiful languid back crosses..and the cruzada that he didn't allow to happen...I don't mind some divergence here if someone would like to venture a guess as to what and why...? Is Walter Gonzalez trying to subvert accepted norms?...or did he just develope his own idiosyncratic dance....one of the pluses that Jan always touts as necessary for a Milonguero...just a fun question...no stress.:friend:...and of course we cant overlook his dance partner...my very favorite woman dancer when it comes to 'natural' talent.
As for myself, the BIG message in this dance is that the traditional dance to the traditional music can be fun, expressive and active...even impressive somehow (at least I think so)..without adding the usual performance (stage) moves..in fact it is a simplification if anything but sensitive and full of energy. It is way under the radar for Nuevo and an eye-opening simplification of Salon. If no one else sees this as I do,
I guess it's because we are both interested in different dances. But this dance is key to my enthusiasm for Argentine Tango.
As for myself, the BIG message in this dance is that the traditional dance to the traditional music can be fun, expressive and active...even impressive somehow (at least I think so)..without adding the usual performance (stage) moves..in fact it is a simplification if anything but sensitive and full of energy. It is way under the radar for Nuevo and an eye-opening simplification of Salon. If no one else sees this as I do,
I guess it's because we are both interested in different dances. But this dance is key to my enthusiasm for Argentine Tango.
I think this is true. I also think it takes dancers a very long time to figure this out, at least it did for me. I started dancing as a teenager and I was a hotshot dancer/performer for seven years before I began to understand that there was a deeper level of dancing besides performing for someone else, that for me, was much more profound. I gave up performing and discovered satisfaction I had not thought possible previously. However, if someone had told me then, while I was still impressed with my own abilities, that a simpler dance could provide greater pleasure, I would not have believed it.
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Well, yes. For that matter, so does "beginner"
For my purposes, "Improver" is between "beginner" and "intermediate".
Don't ask me to explain what "beginner" and "intermediate" levels are...
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Is the broomstick to hit the stupid ones with?
I guess the reason I leave it is because the "8CB" version requires quite a lot of technique - dissociation, free leg, walking in crossed, change of weight in crossed, etc. - to work well as a non-choreographed step.
Plus, I don't really like it.
bordertangoman
Well-Known Member
of course; the two teaching devices of the Spanish Inquisition are hitting and shouting repeatedly