La Crusada

[Zoopsia59]

of course; the two teaching devices of the Spanish Inquisition are hitting and shouting repeatedly

I thought the two chief weapons were surprise and fear and a pretty red uniform...

 

[Dave Bailey]

of course; the two teaching devices of the Spanish Inquisition are hitting and shouting repeatedly

Aha, you have been to my classes.

 

[bordertangoman]

I thought the two chief weapons were surprise and fear and a pretty red uniform...

Our six chief weapons are surprise, fear, hitting and shouting repeatedly, a pretty red uniform and Comme Il Fauts/Darcos.....

any more?

 

[Dave Bailey]

Our six chief weapons are surprise, fear, hitting and shouting repeatedly, a pretty red uniform and Comme Il Fauts/Darcos.....

any more?

I really don't want to see you in a pretty red uniform and Comme Il Fauts.

 

[bordertangoman]

I really don't want to see you in a pretty red uniform and Comme Il Fauts.

thats why its part of the surprise and fear

 

[Ampster]

Originally Posted by Dave Bailey
I really don't want to see you in a pretty red uniform and Comme Il Fauts.

thats why its part of the surprise and fear

I think that's more like shock and awe :raisebro:

 

[Dave Bailey]

Right, so, The Cross. (I don't hold with these silly furrin names. Unless I like them)

I've now done a workshop on "dynamic crosses" by Jenny and Ricardo, so I am therefore now an expert on them (hey, it was "advanced" level, you know).

With my new-found knowledge and wisdom... nah, still feel pretty much the same.

I guess my problem is, there's no way to lead a beginner to a guaranteed cross, without using more "oomph" than I'm comfortable with, or without doing something I personally regard as a "trick" (lifting up, for example).

The way I lead the cross is with a combination of space and closing my chest; but for a beginner, often they'll take that as a signal to start on an ocho movement - that is, they take the diagonal movement but ignore the chest closure.

Sure, a large part of that is my lead not being great - but I think it's inherently not an easy step. So I'm sticking to my "leave it until they're improvers" mantra.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Right, so, The Cross. (I don't hold with these silly furrin names. Unless I like them)

I thought about calling the thread just "the cross", but we were recently talking about parallel and cross system walking, and I didn't want any confusion.

 

[mshedgehog]

I guess my problem is, there's no way to lead a beginner to a guaranteed cross, without using more "oomph" than I'm comfortable with, or without doing something I personally regard as a "trick" (lifting up, for example).

Mmm ... not true in my own experience. But it depends. This is probably testable, isn't it?

Sure, a large part of that is my lead not being great - but I think it's inherently not an easy step. So I'm sticking to my "leave it until they're improvers" mantra.

Or the other way round. Personally I think that dancing well with beginners requires a higher level of skill, not lower. I think many of the people who rarely dance with beginners make that choice because they don't think they have the right skills, I think they're right to make that choice, and I thought the same thing when I started, as well. Some have those skills and some don't. They are quite specific and basic and you have to work on them if you want to dance with beginners. Many people do exactly that thing because it's very rewarding. I do it when the opportunity arises.

The only thing from the woman's point of view is that the movement itself can feel awkward if (when sitting down) she habitually only crosses her legs one way, and it happens to be the other way. I remember noticing this in my own case: realising what my problem was, I crossed my legs the other way for a week and the problem disappeared.

 

[Mario7]

.. Personally I think that dancing well with beginners requires a higher level of skill, not lower. I think many of the people who rarely dance with beginners make that choice because they don't think they have the right skills, I think they're right to make that choice, and I thought the same thing when I started, as well. Some have those skills and some don't. They are quite specific and basic and you have to work on them if you want to dance with beginners..

VERY interesting! I'm at the stage where I want to be able to dance well with beginners (and have them dance well..close embrace) ...what are the 'quite specific and basic' skills as you see them? thks

 

[Lui]

When dancing with a complete beginner I usually don’t bother to lead a cross. As a complete beginner I consider a lady with no tango experience/classes/knowledge whatsoever, just walked into the Milonga and getting me as a some kind of Taxi dancer.

A change of direction by rocking step going into forward ochos is a good substitution for a cross. Any forward movement (forward from the follower’s perspective) seems to be very tempting for a beginner to give into the lead without interpreting. Therefore, I often rotate forward ochos counterclockwise afterwards - adding them up to a carousel and continue with a base continuada. During the last years that has worked very well in any embrace.

If I have some problems with more experienced beginner, I either try the strategy above, lead just a simple stop (without crossing) or try to make it into a friendly challenge by surprising the lady with a cross beside the expected occasion. It depends a lot on the mood of the lady and what I assume will give her a good time.

 

[dchester]

VERY interesting! I'm at the stage where I want to be able to dance well with beginners (and have them dance well..close embrace) ...what are the 'quite specific and basic' skills as you see them? thks

When dancing with beginners, your leads have to be very clear, and typically, more force and/or support is needed. You have to ensure that you stay very stable. For me, it seems to work much better in close embrace, as long as the follower is comfortable with that. Simple walking (slow beats only) is a good start, although rock steps (and rock step turns) seem to be fine with beginners, even with quick steps.

With ochos, you must be clear to distinguish the pivot portion of the lead from the step portion of the lead. If she is a new beginner, then I won't lead the cross, and I'll always take the extra step when going into or coming out of cross system (like for ochos).

What you have to do, to lead beginners well, will drive some intermediate dancers nuts, so you have to be able to adapt to different dancers styles. This is why I recommend dancing with as many different people as possible.

 

[Dave Bailey]

Re: cross, leading the, on beginners:

Mmm ... not true in my own experience. But it depends. This is probably testable, isn't it?

In my experience of dancing with tango beginners, unless they've been specifically taught the cross as a "move" - unless they've been exposed to the concept that they're "allowed" to cross - leading a cross is difficult. You can't rely on dissociation, giving her space, or anything elegant; you need to angle her diagonally and move into her space, almost pushing her foot out of the way. Furthermore, they then usually think they've done something "wrong", and try to "correct" it, by uncrossing.

Sure, these things can be fixed, but only by using a greater level of control than I'm happy with.

Crossing just doesn't seem to be a natural motion for beginners - whereas walking and pivotting, to a point, is.

OK, you could argue that this is exactly why beginners need to be taught it... but I prefer to get them walking as quick as possible. Crossing is clearly not an essential part of the dance, so I leave it until a bit later.

Personally I think that dancing well with beginners requires a higher level of skill, not lower.

I agree. I'd say that I spend at least 50% of my total tango dancing time, dancing with beginners. But that's a wider question than "the cross".

 

[Mario7]

Re: cross, leading the, on beginners:

In my experience of dancing with tango beginners, unless they've been specifically taught the cross as a "move" - unless they've been exposed to the concept that they're "allowed" to cross - leading a cross is difficult. You can't rely on dissociation, giving her space, or anything elegant; you need to angle her diagonally and move into her space, almost pushing her foot out of the way. Furthermore, they then usually think they've done something "wrong", and try to "correct" it, by uncrossing.

Sure, these things can be fixed, but only by using a greater level of control than I'm happy with.

Crossing just doesn't seem to be a natural motion for beginners - whereas walking and pivotting, to a point, is.

OK, you could argue that this is exactly why beginners need to be taught it... but I prefer to get them walking as quick as possible. Crossing is clearly not an essential part of the dance, so I leave it until a bit later.


I agree. I'd say that I spend at least 50% of my total tango dancing time, dancing with beginners. But that's a wider question than "the cross".

This whole post makes clear sense to me. I see nothing as arguable.
Especially the part about beginners thinking that they made a 'mistake' when they are led to do something very much A.T.
This topic needs it's own thread. I will start one now. thks:kissme:

 

[AndaBien]

R...In my experience of dancing with tango beginners, unless they've been specifically taught the cross as a "move" - unless they've been exposed to the concept that they're "allowed" to cross - leading a cross is difficult... Furthermore, they then usually think they've done something "wrong", and try to "correct" it, by uncrossing.

...Crossing just doesn't seem to be a natural motion for beginners - whereas walking and pivotting, to a point, is.

OK, you could argue that this is exactly why beginners need to be taught it... but I prefer to get them walking as quick as possible. Crossing is clearly not an essential part of the dance, so I leave it until a bit later...

I agree. Beginners tend think it can't be right to take a step like a cruzada, and they usually uncross it.

IME, beginners struggle with the cruzada, just briefly before it becomes second nature, but they do. So, I prefer to get them more comfortable with other, more natural aspects of tango before presenting cruzadas.