This seems contradictory ro me, so I'm not really sure what you are saying about how long it takes.
La Crusada
- Thread starter Zoopsia59
- Start date
This seems contradictory ro me, so I'm not really sure what you are saying about how long it takes.
I don't care for the two-steps outside method, because it requires the follower to make a mental calculation, rather than follow what she feels. I also don't like that can leaders anticipate that she will do the cruzada whenever he takes two-steps-outside, regardless of his lead.
I want my follower students to feel the movement and respond, and I want my leader students to give the appropriate movement.
I learned this method when I started, but I eventually discarded it. I believe in teaching my students to do what I do when I am dancing. The two-steps-outside method is not how I dance, so I don't teach it.
It depends. Some get it right away, as you did. Most struggle for a lesson or two before it becomes comfortable. I never put much stress on learning the cruzada because I think most followers will begin to do it in a lesson or two. I always tell the women not to agonize about it - it will just come to them before they know it. (It can always use some detailed fine tuning). As I mentioned, I had one student who never got it.
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Sorry, I should probably have included a smiley in my reply - here you goI'm not sure why you would assume I am blaming you for this? Why take it personally?
I guess my general point was that leaders should lead steps, and followers should follow steps, without anticipation. And if a leader can't lead any step, then it's the leader's fault. If the leader depends on a learned habit to lead a cross, that's Just Wrong.
I think we're probably quibbling over how many angels dance tango on the head of a pin really. My only general points were that:
- The cross should be taught before going to milongas
- But it's not as vital as steps like weight transfer or back steps
- err, that's it...
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Blimey... can't someone else do it? Sounds like hard work.
I'm not a big fan of teaching separately - fundamentally, you need to learn everything with a partner, because you'll be doing it with a partner.
I really think that'd be a bad way to teach - it just wouldn't work.
Mario7
Member
The more I dance with my practice partners and the more I see that they improve with every dance and the dramatic difference between what they can do after a month and what the general class-taker can do.... has led me to believe that Chrisjjjj is right; dancers learn best by dancing with more advanced dancers.... punto final:!:
I'm not sure anyone would argue with that concept (especially if the advanced dancer is really good at explaining things that the beginner just isn't getting) ...
its just that its not always an option that all beginners would have available to them and therefore its overly simplistic and unrealistic to suggest it exclusively (which is what I think the quibble with Chrisdotdotdot's viewpoint was) Besides, there's a big difference between dancing with a more advanced dancer who is instructing, and merely dancing with good dancers socially without any explanation or feedback as to what one is doing wrong.
I think that some specific instruction beyond just "dancing with good dancers" is helpful. For leaders it's probably required... otherwise how do they know what to do? Even in "the old days" the leaders learned from other leaders, not just from dancing with advanced followers. In fact, the leaders didn't get to dance with advanced followers until they were at a certain level.
Followers benefit from specific follower instruction as well.. a follower won't automatically collect and employ proper technique just because she's dancing with a great leader.
But after a certain amount of basics are learned, I agree that its easier to progress when dancing with someone who knows what they are doing.
Geez, that's not exactly rocket science, is it? Don't people always learn more from people who know what they are doing, rather than from people who are beginners?
Mario7
Member
Ok..let me just say what it is that mystifys me..(Help with spelling JohnEm?)...something that I was anticipating would be a continuing problem until 'fixed', clears up magically without a word from me...I think that I (we) place too much confidence in the 'instructive' word. I am seeing some real magic happen with simply dancing another dance...hasn't anyone had this experience? ...it really amazes me and is soooo much easier than yackey-yack.
But you are not a beginner.
When you were, some yakking would have been nessesary. Even now you are asking questions here, so that means some level of specific instruction is helpful, no?
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Dancers dance their best when dancing with more advanced dancers.
I'm not convinced they always learn best that way. For example, a more advanced dancer will compensate for your own problems. That doesn't mean your problems go away, just that your partner is "lending you" some of their skillset to boost your dancing.
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Mario7
Member
FWIW-I ask questions here to remind myself and to hopefully expose something that I've missed or never thought of...yes, a concept..I'm an intellectual and it's my addiction. IE: the specific advice on this thread on what to lead and how to lead it, I've already grokked and have a clear picture of it...it is very reassuring to have someone else say it, too....and the image replays for me and is etched even more deeply~
Also, something like the fact that someone has been advised to take their heels off when practicing walking backwards... I've been recently thinking about that one and it seems that the heels complicates what could be a simpler experience for the beginning walker (I'm talking first class and practice at home)...so, again it's reinforcing my own experience... it's fun to talk about this stuff...who else talks about it but us geeks, anyway? Shoot, we have to have an International forum and pull in dancers from all over the world just to get a handfull of active posters.
..Definition of a NERD = Someone who is obssesed with 'How to do' something.
Also, something like the fact that someone has been advised to take their heels off when practicing walking backwards... I've been recently thinking about that one and it seems that the heels complicates what could be a simpler experience for the beginning walker (I'm talking first class and practice at home)...so, again it's reinforcing my own experience... it's fun to talk about this stuff...who else talks about it but us geeks, anyway? Shoot, we have to have an International forum and pull in dancers from all over the world just to get a handfull of active posters.
..Definition of a NERD = Someone who is obssesed with 'How to do' something.
bordertangoman
Well-Known Member
i wouldnt disagree with this; but if
dancer A; is taking premeditated steps
dancer B: her weight keeps moving back onto her heels
dancer C: sticks her bum out
dancer D: sends his feet out before his chest
Dancer E: is walking like a duck becuase he's afraid of standing on his partner's toes....
etc etc. and you are able to see these things and correct them.....
its called teaching :wink:
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Does she? I didn't notice
