Lanza Six Count Lindy

[Black Sheep]

up beats & down beats

4 beats to the bar specialist,
In the middle of Page 82 in my book, 'Lindy by Lanza' I clearly describe accentuation in Swing with these exact words,
"ACCENT: In Swing we accent the Quick Quick steps or the 2nd and 4th beats of a bar of music, i.e. the up beats."
The book was published April 20, 2001 and the statement on ACCENT was right in with the chapter, 'Lanza's Six Count Lindy'.
How often must I catch you in these Mis-Quotes before I get even a single apology from you, D'nice?
I have a saying, "It's dangerous to mis-quote a man with a memory like a bear trap!" Lanza 2003 a.d.
Black Sheep, your friendly instructor..

 

[d nice]

misquote or indefinite statement?

Joe notice below where I quote exactly what you said on the first page. No alteration was made. Now the problem is that you use steps, beats and counts almost interchangeably at times. I assume here what you are talking about are the two sets of the second part of the triple steps done on the "half" count and on the following up beat... However that is not how it reads.

If you count the number of Quarter beats used in taking those 'Triple Lindy' steps then we have a 'Six Count Lindy'. I chose the Six with the '&' Counts to better express the syncopation on the '&2, &4, and the 6 counts (the up beats) as an integral part of the dance.
I explain this '6 vs. 8' in my 1999 publication.

Joe there are only three upbeats in a six beat segment. The upbeats, also known as the weak beats which in jazz recieve rhythmic emphasis, are the even counts, the 2 and 4 in a one bar musical phrase.

They aren't mis-quotes... since you accuse me of this so VERY often I thought I'd inlcude the link to Dictionary.com and provide their definition of a quote:

quote ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kwt)
v. quot·ed, quot·ing, quotes
v. tr.
1.To repeat or copy the words of (another), usually with acknowledgment of the source.
2.To cite or refer to for illustration or proof.
3.To repeat a brief passage or excerpt from: The saxophonist quoted a Duke Ellington melody in his solo.
4.To state (a price) for securities, goods, or services

So, if I am including your exact wording from your own post, I can't be misquoting you. The only possible misquoting being done is by you of your own words (then again we generally just call these mistakes not misquotes, we all make them). Now I could certainly be misunderstanding the meaning behind your words... but a misquote can only happen if I modify your words or incorrectly attribute a statement to you that you never made.

 

[Swing Kitten]

Re: Originality & creativity

Black Sheep,
I apologize for not responding more promptly and thus disrupting a more conversational style of communication.

...and there were no eight count moves thrown into the Lindy (excepting for a short period when the Big Apple novelties was the craze)

so you're saying the swing-out (that even I know is an intragal characteristic of Lindy Hop as well as consisting of 8 counts, and often 10 steps) came after the 1930's, that is, when you watched your friends dance?

But it seems this has been discussed-- I see no need to bring on a "round 2!" There are so many people here that may speak of the intricacies of the dance far more competantly than I. I am very comfortable dicussing the concepts of creativity and originality, however, so those I will address here briefly before gaining my much needed sleep.

As for taking 'Pride', that's not my favorite definition of my attitude, but I do take 'Credit', for devising a unique method of teaching the Lindy.

See what this says to me is that you are more interested in what the world thinks of you vs. internal person satisfaction and fullfillment. This is probably due to differences in our perspective connotations with such terms as pride and credit and such.

In my 12 years of teaching dance in Hollywood in the 1950's, and observing almost every teacher in Southern California teach groups for the past four years since 1999, I have never observed any of them using my Six Count Method as it was described in my publication which was sold at the Second Annual event of 'Camp Hollywood' at the Palladium in November 1999.

Although I have observed teachers using the '1 &2, 3 &4, Rock Step' counting method they always mixed it in with their 'Triple Triple, 1-2' or started with the Rock Step as a 1-2, and never used the Six Count Method as a mechanical/Rhythmic Guide to teach or learn the Lindy. And there is the secret to my teaching method; The 'Lanza Six Count Lindy, a Teaching Method uses at 'Mechanical Rhythmic' count which I developed when teaching my uniquely different tennis techniques.

This is exactly what I mean by creativity!! You didn't see it beforehand, but you created it-- the creative act!! Isn't it exciting?!!
But honestly, I've never heard the six count counted out the way of those other instructors mentioned.

And there ARE people who are creative, and they are the few in this world while the great majority are copycats and imitators.

This is where our views are VERY different. To me, all people are creative just to varying degrees. Have you ever watched children play with their toys? Sure they play just as children have played for generations but they aren't hacks. A student in his first ceramics class... one of the oldest arts known to mankind... after several attempts he makes a.. a.. a vessel... sure he's not an original but he is, in fact, creative-- Dumas would agree.
There are so many other examples, including some from my own life experience, but I believe these will suffice.

Let me ask you Swing Kitten, 'Do you feel my Six Count Lindy teaching Method is a copycat or an out and out imitation of a teaching CODE, which my Mechanical/Rhythmic system actually is, since each cipher almost always stands for the specific weight change and a specific motion? And can you actually prove your allegations of my supposed plagerism by documenting your proof with a publication previous to my November 1999, 'Strictly Swing'?

I don't think you're a copycat... I would sincerely doubt anyone thinks such. I don't think you saw this counting method anywhere before you wrote it down... that's fine. Do I think you created it? Yes. Do I think you originated it? No. Do I think you are guilty of "plagerism?" Of course not (I'm also not sure if you intend your language to come across as heavy and defensive as it seems-- again, those silly connotations! )

The other day when I was a girl my church taught a little swing dance class for the girls and their dads (it was definately pre-1999). While they did not use your Magic Pill, they used your CODE.

Think of this... I had a good friend who studied handdruming (of course this in not an academic citation...but it makes perfect sense to me). The first druming pattern he taught me was 1234, 1234, 1212,1234.
What is interesting about druming is that it is found most cultures (let's just say that you'd be hard pressed to find a culture that does/did not include the drum) and each prominate culture on each continant on the globe (maybe not Antartica... maybe!) came up with the pattern 1234, 1234, 1212, 1234. But who originated it? No one knows and it's not the point... There is no reason why each of these cultures cannot be thought of as creators of the rhthym and even though it is certain that some of these cultures developed this chronologically before others; however, it is fairly certain in some cases, due to geographical reasons, there was no cultural exchange of such. So it seems quite likely that it was created independantly across the globe.

So why would it be so hard to fathom that someone else, if not many people could come up with the very same way of counting out the steps to a well known dance? There are a limited number of logical possibilities... and people love to think! Is concievable that a few people may have come up with it at the same time or possibly even before Mr. Joe Lanza? even if on the other side of the country? This does not diminish your creativity... only your "bragging rights" if that's all you are after.

No one has to agree with me... just sharing my thoughts.

 

[Black Sheep]

Bragging Rights!

Swing Kitten,
The reason I call the 'Magic Pill' the 'Joe Lanza Six Count Lindy', a Teaching Method is two fold, and I know I am repeating my self, but once again:
1) I want to differentiate it from any other teacher's Teaching Method;
2) The Magic Pill has a very delineated step by step teaching procedure with specific guide lines for both the Man's and the Lady's movements which I secure from corruption by documenting it and simultaneously distributing the Magic Pill to well over 10, 000 dancers in the same ten day period.
Of course every one is creative in one way or another. When I talk about creativity, I'm not talking about knitting a sweater or even an oil painting or even acting or any other art or sport activity. What I am referring to is the innovative methods, the inventions the, unique way of assembling information and coming up with something new and better with which all people can benefit by in any given field of life.
The Magic Pill of course has factors that others may or may not have employed in teaching any sport, be it tennis of tidily winks. As I paraphrased Dumas' statement of 'creative originality as the arranging of old ideas in a new way with better results'.
Is the Magic Pill an earth shaking Method of teaching? Of course not! But is it helpful in 'Jump Starting' a wallflower into dancing the Lindy? Absolutely. I've got some hundred or so personal subscribers who have already personally benefited by my 15 minute Lindy Lesson, called the 'Magic Pill'.
Should the 'Magic Pill' be judged a complete comprehensive training method of Lindy dancing with all techniques included for developing into an accomplished Lindy dancer? Of course not!
The 'Magic Pill', is a way of getting a complete beginner to dance socially with any dancer at any level, the very evening after their first 15 minute 'Magic Pill' Lesson.
Why is there so much nit-picking about the originality of the Six Count, and a complete ignoring of the effectiveness of concept of my Magic Pill?
If others have used this six count and of course we have to assume that many have, but where do we find someone employing the six count into the formula similar to my Magic Pill Rhythmic/Mechanical Code? And if they have, why haven't they published it before me? What good is an innovation or an invention or a new discovery if it isn't usefully or shared?
I do not purport to be a Columbus, but there are archeological finds in North America that suggest the Vikings were the first discoverers of America a hundred or so years before Columbus. But what good were their discoveries if the Vikings kept it a secret? Columbus' discovery opened up a new world for land hungry Europeans. His discovery had a significant beneficial affect!
So if someone else has come up with my Magic teaching method, which no one so far has even suggested, then what good is their Viking discovery if posterity doesn't benefit by it?
I don't think having my attitude about the Magic Pill is justky defined as 'bragging'. This word has the connotation of someone taking undue and unwarranted credit for some activity or idea.
I do feel it is perfectly civil for a person to take credit for an accomplishment that is the result of some 50+ years as a professional educator whose sole earnings were from teaching and experimenting in the many fields of teaching.
The Magic Pill is not an accident! I knew there was a dire need to make the Savoy Lindy more available for posterity in its original form, and I put all my past experience toward this goal. And tested it with hundreds of students these past ten or so months. What's wrong with taking credit for that?
I explained the two reasons above why I attached my Name to the Lindy Six Count, a Teaching Method. And I find no fault is adding a third reason for attaching my name to the Six Count Lindy, a Teaching Method,
3) because Joe Lanza developed it!
Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.

 

[SDsalsaguy]

Re: Bragging Rights!

But what good were their discoveries if the Vikings kept it a secret?

Depends for who, now doesn't it? I imagine that whatever "discoveries" they made were quite good for the Vikings themselves, no?

Columbus' discovery opened up a new world for land hungry Europeans.

Ok, factually true.

His discovery had a significant beneficial affect!

Again, it depends for who Joe. I can imagine that most Native Americans might have a rather different point of view, no?

I realize that you were trying to make a specific point, but using factual materials also binds you to the full measure of those materials, not just the elements you want and/or like.

 

[d nice]

See SD I think his analogy is pretty accurate. What some see as being unique is not, what some think is beneficial in fact is not in the long run.

Joe I already pointed out to you that various parts of your method are used already. There are two different ballroom studios in Sacramento that use the same methodology for East Coast, West coast and a modified version for Salsa. The whole "cifer" and "code" idea is hardly unique.

I've also told you that I myself started with a method incredibly similar to this when I started teaching ECS. I abandoned it once I realized that it was too mechanical in its methods, too intellectual for my purposes. Instead of teaching others the way I had been taught I adapted the methodology I had been taught to teach Hand to Hand Combat. It is based on natural reactions, economy of motion and body mechanics. I found that I achieved better results and my students enjoyed the process more.

I have used the process as you outlined it and while it achieved the stated goal it was not superior to the method in it's variances from the method I had originally used to teach ECS and is in my estimation limiting to those who wish to continue to progress in their dancing. Followers who depend on the cipher are caught unaware when the leader improvises, and swing dancing without improvisation isn't swing dancing as far as I'm concerned.

So while you may have been the first person I am aware of to put all these things down, in this specific order, in writing, it does not differ substantially from existing methodologies to be considered original, nor does it achieve a superior result than those methods or several others that bear little to no resembalance to it.

If you are basing it's originality on the teachers in L.A. I'd highly sugesst you travel outside of SoCal before making such claims.

 

[Black Sheep]

Uniqueness of Lanza's 6 Count Lindy TM:

Dear Skeptics Anonymous,
What makes the Magic Pill uniquely different? Let me list Six factors that up until my Magic Pill was first distributed the last week of June, 2003. Since then and increasing, you are beginning to see my Lindy TM being employed internationally, and by this time next year there is no doubt in my mind that it will be a standard procedure in introducing wallflowers to the Savoy Lindy.

[edit by DanceMentor - setting a new precedent here. I want to stay away from accusations of personal attack. There are some good points about the Magic Pills's benefits, but let's not goad others in adversarial manner. Your're awesome, Joe. Just want to keep things positive and fun for all.]

Six Unique Factors NEVER before PUBLISHED as a method in teaching Swing/Lindy before the publishing of my 'Magic Pill' in November 1999:
1) Beginning the lesson with a beginner in 'Push Position';
2) Keeping the music on from the beginning of lesson to the end;
3) With student gradually increasing their pace to reach in sync the tempo of the music;
4) Having the student count, 1 &2, 3 &4, 5-6 continually in sync with their steps every beat of the complete lesson;
5) Learning the footwork, leads and follow and rhythm simultaneously within the same 15 minutes period;
6) Within minutes after completion of lesson, having students dancing with any dancer at any level present at the Venue.

Now whatch the nit-pickers try to confuse you with their 'criticisms'
of these Six Unique factors of the Magic Pill!

Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.

 

[d nice]

Re: Uniqueness of Lanza's 6 Count Lindy TM:

Six Unique Factors NEVER before PUBLISHED as a method in teaching Swing/Lindy before the publishing of my 'Magic Pill' in November 1999:
1) Beginning the lesson with a beginner in 'Push Position';
2) Keeping the music on from the beginning of lesson to the end;
3) With student gradually increasing their pace to reach in sync the tempo of the music;
4) Having the student count, 1 &2, 3 &4, 5-6 continually in sync with their steps every beat of the complete lesson;
5) Learning the footwork, leads and follow and rhythm simultaneously within the same 15 minutes period;
6) Within minutes after completion of lesson, having students dancing with any dancer at any level present at the Venue.

Now whatch the nit-pickers try to confuse you with their 'criticisms'
of these Six Unique factors of the Magic Pill!

Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.

Actually these aren't unique to you. People have been teaching East Coast Swing for 50 years most of the good bad and mediocre ideas have been done already. The Salazar family here in Sacramento has been running a ballroom for quite some time and their dance manuals from the eighties actually have four of these six things for their ECS teachers' guide. Since you have yet to define the "push position" I can't comment if theire extended face to face position is the same one you use. If it is then that is five for six. When they teach ECS before their dances we then have six for six.

I also know that the Ballroom of Sacramento also has four of these in their teachers manual, and when they teach ECS before their dances it bumps up to 5... when we have some description of "push position" then we can see if they also go six for six.

What difference does it make if they use any or all of these ideas, and whether it is in writing or part of the oral transmission teachers recieve?

Many of these techniques are and have been used for a while. They work. I recommend four of these six to anyone and everyone. I still don't know exactly what you mean by "push position" so I reserve criticism or compliments. I don't like numbers and prefer to use a rhythmic mantra as a mnemonic aide.

Anything that gets people dancing to one degree or another and sparks interest is good. Don't take my criticisms of other parts of the pill to mean otherwise. If two people can not disagree in a reasonable and intelligent manner, there really isn't any point of discussion. If their isn't any point of discussion then there is no reason to post to a discussion forum.

Dance-Forums is all about the exchange of ideas, be they kind, critical, or just a running commentary.