My dance competency is slowly catching up to the level of my inspiration. A lot of times I will want to try something I have never tried before, either in class, in practice, or on the dance floor and many times my skill is not up to the level of my inspiration. It depends on the music, my mood, my partner and I'm sure other things. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. If it works, then great! If not, I'm apologizing to my partner. I might try again in the same dance and if it doesn't work again, I stop the experimenting and dance what I already know. So is this experimenting a bad thing that decreases the enjoyment for my partner or is it a good thing that raises the level of enjoyment when it works?
Lead experimenting on dance floor, good or bad?
- Thread starter tacad
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Sagitta
Well-Known Member
About two times is the max I would do in a song. Otherwise it becomes a practice session for the leader and not a social dance, and so you got that right. As for it resulting in decreasing follower enjoyment it depends on what you do as your inspiration moves. If as you are trying something out, and it doesn't work, you can slip into another move or make it seem more like part of the dance the follower may not even realize that you failed to do what you were trying. Again that comes with time.
tacad wrote:
"... So is this experimenting a bad thing that decreases the enjoyment for my partner or is it a good thing that raises the level of enjoyment when it works?"
Could be a bad thing with certain partners, like those very new, those who don't trust you, those who don't have a strong positive attitude, those who frown on going outside the usual patterns, those you don't really know much about yet, and even those who just don't seem to be happy dancing at that moment.
It's a good thing for those just the opposite of what I mentioned above.
"... So is this experimenting a bad thing that decreases the enjoyment for my partner or is it a good thing that raises the level of enjoyment when it works?"
Could be a bad thing with certain partners, like those very new, those who don't trust you, those who don't have a strong positive attitude, those who frown on going outside the usual patterns, those you don't really know much about yet, and even those who just don't seem to be happy dancing at that moment.
It's a good thing for those just the opposite of what I mentioned above.
sunderi
New Member
I think the answer to this is going to vary greatly -- it's really a matter of personal opinion.
Personally, I don't mind at all if someone tries something "experimental" on the dance floor. However,
Personally, I don't mind at all if someone tries something "experimental" on the dance floor. However,
Don't keep trying it over & over again if it doesn't work
Don't try to TEACH it to your partner, unless she asks
DO try it again if she asks you to -- she might have ALMOST gotten it and want another shot at it
Lots of good advice already. My take:
- learn to suppress the occasional urge to improvise a random move completely out of the blue at a particularly moving moment in a song--it never works and it usually ends up looking silly (been there done that
)
- shadow-dance the new moves at home before you go out
- two attempts per dance max
- two new moves per EVENING is about all I can take (write them down on a cheat-sheet kept in your back pocket, be persistent and don't cheat with other new material)
- at first only practice with more advanced follows, otherwise you don't know whether it's bad lead or lack of following skill that caused the disconnect
- revisit old, seldom used moves from time to time (get used to the fact that only a small fraction of all the moves you're taught are keepers)
- as you get better work on escape routes and a variety of ways to set up for and exit from the new move; if you have to do a basic before and after then you haven't yet internalized the move, gotta connect it with the rest of your repertoire.
As for your partner's enjoyment, I suspect it depends entirely on the partner. Most of the girls I dance with regularly get quite excited when they're first led successfully through a fancy new move. This is understandable: follows quickly reach a plateau where they get less and less out of lessons since they can't just go out and practice the new moves--they're at the mercy of whichever leads turn up with respect to what they get to practice at any given night. As you incorporate more advanced moves into your routine you'll find that you'll start to get asked quite often to repeat moves that disconnect the first time you try them during a dance. On the other hand, I've also been told after dances that I did too much advanced material, that I should do the basics a lot more. Can't please everyone all the time, I guess. :roll:
But what we really need at this point in the discussion are honest opinions from some *follows*! Anyone?
- learn to suppress the occasional urge to improvise a random move completely out of the blue at a particularly moving moment in a song--it never works and it usually ends up looking silly (been there done that
)- shadow-dance the new moves at home before you go out
- two attempts per dance max
- two new moves per EVENING is about all I can take (write them down on a cheat-sheet kept in your back pocket, be persistent and don't cheat with other new material)
- at first only practice with more advanced follows, otherwise you don't know whether it's bad lead or lack of following skill that caused the disconnect
- revisit old, seldom used moves from time to time (get used to the fact that only a small fraction of all the moves you're taught are keepers)
- as you get better work on escape routes and a variety of ways to set up for and exit from the new move; if you have to do a basic before and after then you haven't yet internalized the move, gotta connect it with the rest of your repertoire.
As for your partner's enjoyment, I suspect it depends entirely on the partner. Most of the girls I dance with regularly get quite excited when they're first led successfully through a fancy new move. This is understandable: follows quickly reach a plateau where they get less and less out of lessons since they can't just go out and practice the new moves--they're at the mercy of whichever leads turn up with respect to what they get to practice at any given night. As you incorporate more advanced moves into your routine you'll find that you'll start to get asked quite often to repeat moves that disconnect the first time you try them during a dance. On the other hand, I've also been told after dances that I did too much advanced material, that I should do the basics a lot more. Can't please everyone all the time, I guess. :roll:
But what we really need at this point in the discussion are honest opinions from some *follows*! Anyone?
motardmom
New Member
tacad said:
Twice is good. Three times is pushing it. Sometimes, and only with certain partners (and with spacious dance floors!), we'll just throw caution to the wind and try things and just have fun and laugh when it doesn't work. We always end up with new stuff (and a bunch of stuff we know not to try again :lol: )
It totally depends on your partner and all that.
Lita_rulez
New Member
sunderi said:I think the answer to this is going to vary greatly -- it's really a matter of personal opinion.
Personally, I don't mind at all if someone tries something "experimental" on the dance floor. However,
Don't keep trying it over & over again if it doesn't work
Don't try to TEACH it to your partner, unless she asks
DO try it again if she asks you to -- she might have ALMOST gotten it and want another shot at it
Totaly agree with sunderi, and totaly disagree with clave (sarry
)First off, the answer is going to vary greatly, it's really a matter of personal opinion. The only catch is, it's not a matter of your own personal opinion, it is a matter of the follow's personal opinion, on that particular night, on that particular song.
If she is in a romantic mood on a romantic song, don't go and try that fancy double-spinn-armlock-to-underebelly-headturn-to-dip-to-one-handed-quadruple-spin thingy.
Other than that, I agree fully with every aspect :
- don't try it over and over if it does not work. This is a social dance, not a practice session. Besides, it is always nicer to try it with different follow to figure out if your lead was wrong with the first follow or if she simply did not get it, before changing everything.
Hoever, if you do want to figure how to do the move, you can always ask your follow at the end of the song if she'd be willing to try and figure it out with you, some really love giving their input on things, because precisely, in classes they have reached a plateau and it becomes boring. But inventing a new moove, telling how best to lead it for her to understand what's coming next ? That's exciting !
- don't try to teach your partner, well, I'd say don't try to teach her at all, because you are the lead, and if your lead is clear, she should not need to be taught the moove. But, sometimes it's nicer for her to be involved in the creation of the move, see my answer right above
- Do try it again if she asks you to, after all, you are here to please her, aren't you ?
Now, on to clave's answer :twisted:
The main reason I disagree with you is that I do not see dance as something you learn by the book, take notes, store them, cehck them out, and so on...
Dancing is, well... dancing ! Of course you nedd the proper technique to lead, the proper frame, the proper way to move. But then what ? Is that all there is to it ? It's all only a shell, really, what is important, what really matters is how you fill it !
Let me use a metaphore to explain myself best : When you learn a language, you are tought full sentences. You get to learn the gramar behind it so you can construct sentences your self. Then you learn new words. You also learn how to make phonems, and how words are constructed. After that, you are on you own : if you don't have anything to say, anything to share, then what is the langage except for an empty shell ? On the other hand, if you have a story to tell, and make up a new word here and there (but using the basic rules and sounds) that I can understand the meaning of, I'll have a blast listening to you and I'll come back for more !
Dancing is basicaly the same : every moove you learn can be cut down to elementary moves. And there can only be so many new "elementary" mooves. Once you have done that, well, it is like you have been given an alphabet, or a dictionary. The story is now yours to tell. The follow is ready to listen to it, and the music allready sets the mood...
You're dancing with your emotions, and for it to really be a terrific experience, you need not to bind yourself inside a strictly defined amount of patern you should not deviate from, you nedd to know that whenever the music is right, you can switch from that begining to that end, and the transition can be... well, let's just make it up as we go !
Freedom is what will make your dance special, diferent, tastefull. At least, to me, it is the starting point to defining one as "advance" dancer : the ability to improvise a move. Besides, it is also what alows you yo have a blast at a live event : since the musicians are changing the music according to the way people dance, and people are reacting to it...
It becomes more than a dialogue, it is an all out conference to make up a huge story, and it is a wonderfull thing to experience
MacMoto
Active Member
:lol: :lol: :lol:Lita_rulez said:
I agree with Lita -- it's immensely annoying when a leader decides to experiment with his flashy new moves to my favourite medium-slow salsa romantica :evil:.
Otherwise, when the leader tries something and it doesn't work, I usually ask him to try again just to see if I can follow it. It maybe either him experimenting with a new move or just me not following something right because it's unfamiliar to me.
Lita_rulez said:
I can identify with the word freedom. I think I've come to the conclusion that dance is 'play'. Sometimes I have fun 'playing' on my own to the music. When I go to a bar and they are playing rhythmic blues-type music, I sometimes now find myself moving around to the music in a way that I wouldn't have done a few years ago. (Dancing has given me that confidence and inspiration).
The best partner dances I have also feel like playing, and not just like a succession of moves. The worst ones are where I feel imprisoned by a set of moves and can't break out of them. So the idea of experimenting is to be encouraged.
I do find it much harder to 'play' while leading a partner. Sometimes I sense my partner wanting to play but I just carry on leading a standard move which doesn't give her the space to play.
nice thread subject..
for me, my dancing is 100% improvised.. all felt .. not thought of.. if i think of what move to do i cut the flow.. my inner flow that is .. so i just tune myself to the music and salsera then let it go.. as it comes.. so i guess its all experimentation to me.. maybe cause i've been dancing long.. it has become rare that i mess up.. cause with time and passion u get more and more 'fine-tuned' if u can call it that.. the dance becomes second nature and totally free soul expression.. where beauty is ..
and when for somereason or another i mess up its usually like a glitch in the matrix.. it just soaked up back quick within the flow like it never happened..
but, when the mistake is too large that it becomes 'blooper' status.. then we probably laugh like someone is tickling us bigtime :lol:
for me, my dancing is 100% improvised.. all felt .. not thought of.. if i think of what move to do i cut the flow.. my inner flow that is .. so i just tune myself to the music and salsera then let it go.. as it comes.. so i guess its all experimentation to me.. maybe cause i've been dancing long.. it has become rare that i mess up.. cause with time and passion u get more and more 'fine-tuned' if u can call it that.. the dance becomes second nature and totally free soul expression.. where beauty is ..
and when for somereason or another i mess up its usually like a glitch in the matrix.. it just soaked up back quick within the flow like it never happened..
but, when the mistake is too large that it becomes 'blooper' status.. then we probably laugh like someone is tickling us bigtime :lol:
Vin
New Member
I tend to think there are different kinds of experimenting to talk about here. There is the . . .
Look what I just learned in class experiment
also you have the . . .
Oops, wait a second that was kind of cool, mind if we try that again experiment
My personal favorite is the . . .
How on earth did I get us stuck in this position, let's think of a cool way to get us out of it .
There are other kinids of experiments but those are the ones that come to mind.
For the first kind, I usually wait until I am comfortable doing a move in a controlled environment before I unleash it on an unsuspecting follow. Even then I try and limit it if it doesn't go very well. I actually get into a bad habit of doing it too much if it goes well though.
The second two happen pretty much all the time. They seem to make dancing more fun.
Look what I just learned in class experiment
also you have the . . .
Oops, wait a second that was kind of cool, mind if we try that again experiment
My personal favorite is the . . .
How on earth did I get us stuck in this position, let's think of a cool way to get us out of it .
There are other kinids of experiments but those are the ones that come to mind.
For the first kind, I usually wait until I am comfortable doing a move in a controlled environment before I unleash it on an unsuspecting follow. Even then I try and limit it if it doesn't go very well. I actually get into a bad habit of doing it too much if it goes well though.
The second two happen pretty much all the time. They seem to make dancing more fun.
depends...
if he asks for my opinion as an instructor... I give him an opinion, but only once and that's it! I'm not there to teach!
if he doesn't ask, but does the 'experiment' once or twice to see if he can lead me, that's fine!
but if he keeps repeating the same move without asking for my opinion (if I feel like being a Guinea pig) he's not gonna get another dance soon!
I am all for helping out, but I am there to have fun too!
if the guy is my partner, he usually asks (otherwise he gets the same treatment)! if it's a leader girl, I apply the same rules (maybe let her try a little more, as she gets less practice than a guy...)[/i]
if he asks for my opinion as an instructor... I give him an opinion, but only once and that's it! I'm not there to teach!
if he doesn't ask, but does the 'experiment' once or twice to see if he can lead me, that's fine!
but if he keeps repeating the same move without asking for my opinion (if I feel like being a Guinea pig) he's not gonna get another dance soon!
I am all for helping out, but I am there to have fun too!
if the guy is my partner, he usually asks (otherwise he gets the same treatment)! if it's a leader girl, I apply the same rules (maybe let her try a little more, as she gets less practice than a guy...)[/i]
Lita_rulez wrote:
> and totaly disagree with clave
I find it interesting that you disagree with my advice to an improver, especially since I agree with most everything you said. :doh:
For example:
> Freedom is what will make your dance special, diferent, tastefull. At least, to me, it is the starting point to defining one as "advance" dancer : the ability to improvise a move. Besides, it is also what alows you yo have a blast at a live event : since the musicians are changing the music according to the way people dance, and people are reacting to it...
Couldn't agree more. But for me personally it took well over ONE YEAR of dancing lessons to get to the point where I was starting to feel a whiff of this promised "freedom". This was the point where I had enough elementary material committed to muscle memory that I didn't have to think hard about what comes next, and could comfortably focus on pushing the limits of my skill in the knowledge that I had the reflexes to escape gracefully from most mess-ups without hurting my partner or making her look silly. Only now, some eighteen months after I first stepped into a dance studio, am I starting to develop a feel for which moves fit nicely into certain kinds of music and an intuition for which follows will respond gracefully to what signals. (I mean, how does one know which moves feel romantic to a follow? Answer: by using them in the wrong setting a thousand times! It takes years.)
So, while your rather poetic and inspirational description of what dance should be is song to my ears, it's really not very useful to an improver. When you go out dancing, do you notice all those burly dudes standing around the floor with their arms crossed, reduced to broth at the prospect of asking a stranger to dance and making her looking foolish? It wasn't that long ago that I was one of them, and I'm not a shy person by any stretch of imagination. The silly thing is, most of those guys actually CAN dance just fine, as in feel the beat and had already been taught a nice set of moves. What helped me get out of the nest, so to speak, was the structured approach that I described in my previous post. What I found the least useful were all the well-meaning friends who'd say "get out there and just dance"--I kept thinking, if I could "just dance" I wouldn't be asking you for advice on how to! :?
As for "binding oneself inside a strictly defined amount of pattern one should not deviate from" I never implied any such thing. In fact, I strongly encourage everyone to take every move they're taught and change it slightly, make it their own, combine it with everything else they know in a myriad ways. But the time to do this is not at the dance floor upon having a brain fart, that in my case results in a disaster almost every time. I create new moves (well, okay, variations on old moves) at home when inspiration strikes, write them down or play them in my head/shadow-dance a zillion times before going out and testing them.
Sabor wrote:
> for me, my dancing is 100% improvised.. all felt .. not thought of..
Hey, was that you in that video clip that got posted here some time ago? There were some pretty fancy moves in there, I betcha you didn't just come up with all that on the spot, eh? Seriously, though, now I know exactly what you meant when you wrote the above words, but tell them to a beginner and they'll rightfully accuse you of being full of it. Here's a funny: the time I realized my dancing is becoming "all felt, not thought of" was when I tried a thoroughly-learned move with a girl who was a pretty good follow but clearly didn't know this particular move; after it disconnected a couple of times she asked me "what am I supposed to do when you lead that" and I....couldn't remember which was the move I just did! :doh: It just played itself without me thinking about it! Gloat gloat gloat. :twisted:
> and totaly disagree with clave
I find it interesting that you disagree with my advice to an improver, especially since I agree with most everything you said. :doh:
For example:
> Freedom is what will make your dance special, diferent, tastefull. At least, to me, it is the starting point to defining one as "advance" dancer : the ability to improvise a move. Besides, it is also what alows you yo have a blast at a live event : since the musicians are changing the music according to the way people dance, and people are reacting to it...
Couldn't agree more. But for me personally it took well over ONE YEAR of dancing lessons to get to the point where I was starting to feel a whiff of this promised "freedom". This was the point where I had enough elementary material committed to muscle memory that I didn't have to think hard about what comes next, and could comfortably focus on pushing the limits of my skill in the knowledge that I had the reflexes to escape gracefully from most mess-ups without hurting my partner or making her look silly. Only now, some eighteen months after I first stepped into a dance studio, am I starting to develop a feel for which moves fit nicely into certain kinds of music and an intuition for which follows will respond gracefully to what signals. (I mean, how does one know which moves feel romantic to a follow? Answer: by using them in the wrong setting a thousand times! It takes years.)
So, while your rather poetic and inspirational description of what dance should be is song to my ears, it's really not very useful to an improver. When you go out dancing, do you notice all those burly dudes standing around the floor with their arms crossed, reduced to broth at the prospect of asking a stranger to dance and making her looking foolish? It wasn't that long ago that I was one of them, and I'm not a shy person by any stretch of imagination. The silly thing is, most of those guys actually CAN dance just fine, as in feel the beat and had already been taught a nice set of moves. What helped me get out of the nest, so to speak, was the structured approach that I described in my previous post. What I found the least useful were all the well-meaning friends who'd say "get out there and just dance"--I kept thinking, if I could "just dance" I wouldn't be asking you for advice on how to! :?
As for "binding oneself inside a strictly defined amount of pattern one should not deviate from" I never implied any such thing. In fact, I strongly encourage everyone to take every move they're taught and change it slightly, make it their own, combine it with everything else they know in a myriad ways. But the time to do this is not at the dance floor upon having a brain fart, that in my case results in a disaster almost every time. I create new moves (well, okay, variations on old moves) at home when inspiration strikes, write them down or play them in my head/shadow-dance a zillion times before going out and testing them.
Sabor wrote:
> for me, my dancing is 100% improvised.. all felt .. not thought of..
Hey, was that you in that video clip that got posted here some time ago? There were some pretty fancy moves in there, I betcha you didn't just come up with all that on the spot, eh?
Seriously, though, now I know exactly what you meant when you wrote the above words, but tell them to a beginner and they'll rightfully accuse you of being full of it. Here's a funny: the time I realized my dancing is becoming "all felt, not thought of" was when I tried a thoroughly-learned move with a girl who was a pretty good follow but clearly didn't know this particular move; after it disconnected a couple of times she asked me "what am I supposed to do when you lead that" and I....couldn't remember which was the move I just did! :doh: It just played itself without me thinking about it! Gloat gloat gloat. :twisted:I suppose I should say that I've been dancing informally off and on for about 10 years but only recently am starting to work on technique seriously. I'm do ok improvising on foxtrot and it usually works. It's the other dances that I am trying to break out of the mold on. I guess I'm trying to raise the level of both technique and improvisation. Making the dance more of a story written between the two of us.