lead/follow better by dancing with less experienced dancers

[cl5814]

I was just reading an article on lead/follow and the following statement was made, which i found rather interesting.

"You learn how to dance better by dancing with more experienced partners. But you learn how to lead/follow better by dancing with less experienced partners. Your skills are put much more to the test dancing with a beginner than with an experienced dancer. It is easy to lead/follow a great dancer. All your weaknesses as a leader/follower show up with beginners. Dance with them and ask yourself why each incorrectly led/followed figure didn't work and when you figure it out, work on incorporating the fixes into all your dancing! "

If anyone is interested in reading the rather lengthy article it is posted at
dancers-archive.com/rec-arts-dance/topics/lead-follow-discussion.txt

 

[Chris Stratton]

There is some truth to this, but there is also a major pitfall - overleading to the point of developing bad habits.

For example, spend some time trying to get a beginner lady to do heel turns in foxtrot. It's very easy to over-do this by shoving her on her heels, and then over rotating, for example finishing a reverse turn with the right shoulder forward in her space. This can push her off balance, and takes a lot of the life out of life out of a following feather finish since you can't swing the left shoulder through when it is already back. Often the habit persists even when dancing with better followers...

 

[goldfish]

hmm i'd agree and disagree... being a beginner follow

yes because dancing with someone less experienced shows how clearly you lead. the awesome leads make me look good because their leads are strong, clear and they pick up on my level of ability and lead within that. and less experienced leads make me work on basics a lot more and focus, focus, focus!

no because with follows even more green than me (hard to find, but there are teehee), i found myself autopiloting the dance rather than following. like if they lead a turn, but lead it out of time and sort of jerkily, i'd compensate for it by keeping to the rhythm and using my frame to sort of push them into finishing the turn more neatly. but that's not what they lead - so i didn't really follow, but did my own thing, which *they* accomodated. the more green leads have told me they were thankful for my aggressive follow, whereas the more experienced ones tell me they're glad when i don't autopilot
[/i]

 

[spatten]

I would have to disagree with the article. I do a lot of social dancing with beginning dancers and find it almost necessary to lead with my arms much more than I would like. As long as I am conscious of what I am doing, I can keep it from becoming a habit. But it is quite easy to devlop "overleading" as Chris suggested by putting beginners where you want them.

I can also think of much more beneficial ways to focus on your leading skills than just going out and finding a beginner to practice upon.

Scott

 

[dragon3085]

I always thought this was just a ploy to get the more expereienced dancers to dance with the newcomers. :twisted:
Actually I do disagree with this though and here is why. If I am leading something with someone above my level and she doesn't follow it correctly, I can 99 percent sure I screwed the lead. However with a less experienced follower I can't be sure if it was my bad lead or their inability to follow. So really from a leading perspective, I think that dancing with someone above my level, allows me to isolate and refine my lead to a higher degree by removing a variable from the equation.

pat

 

[Chris Stratton]

I can also think of much more beneficial ways to focus on your leading skills than just going out and finding a beginner to practice upon.

Taking one-on-one technique (as opposed to performance prep) lessons with a good female coach can work well.

 

[msc]

I agree with spatten. Going from social to my instructor (a former US Standard finalist,) I have to change my lead technique dramatically. In fact, social dancing can really mess up your lead, in my experience.

 

[tsb]

it hasn't been stated but there are some assumptions here:
- that we are speaking as social (non-competitive) dancers;
- that we WANT to be able to dance with almost everyone. most competitive dancers work at dancing well with a few select partners;

not while everyone has that goal but i will assume that it is for everyone responding. so...

There is some truth to this, but there is also a major pitfall - overleading to the point of developing bad habits.

i submit that part of being a good lead is figuring out exactly how clear their lead needs to be and adjusting their lead accordingly - no need to shout when you can whisper. example: to lead a beginner follower through a right turn, i may keep my right hand on her shoulder blade to guide her until she's actually facing away from me whereas with a really advanced follower, i can just do a gentle roll with my palm with my wrist travelling no more than 1/2" and release and she'll go.

no because with follows even more green than me (hard to find, but there are teehee), i found myself autopiloting the dance rather than following. like if they lead a turn, but lead it out of time and sort of jerkily, i'd compensate for it by keeping to the rhythm and using my frame to sort of push them into finishing the turn more neatly. but that's not what they lead - so i didn't really follow, but did my own thing, which *they* accomodated. the more green leads have told me they were thankful for my aggressive follow, whereas the more experienced ones tell me they're glad when i don't autopilot
[/i]

truly inexperienced leaders do get some benefit when their followers backlead in understanding how it should feel when their partners execute the move - particularly in class. you don't say whether this is in a class or dance environment, but i imagine that the main gratitude the inexperienced leads were expressing was that you made them look better rather than for any "lead" skill development - you compensated for them the same way more advanced leaders compensate for less skilled followers, which is always a good thing.

Actually I do disagree with this though and here is why. If I am leading something with someone above my level and she doesn't follow it correctly, I can 99 percent sure I screwed the lead. However with a less experienced follower I can't be sure if it was my bad lead or their inability to follow.

i submit that part of being a good leader is not choosing a move (during a dance) they aren't sure they can lead that particular partner through (or sure that the partner can execute) smoothly.

I agree with spatten. Going from social to my instructor (a former US Standard finalist,) I have to change my lead technique dramatically. In fact, social dancing can really mess up your lead, in my experience.

i understand what you're trying to say, but it will confuse a lot of people.
very few competitive dancers can dance well with a lot of people. but then that's usually not one of their goals, so what they learn in lead and follow is a lot more right way/wrong way - which works because everyone's dancing to those standards.

lead/follow is communication. for those who compete, the vocabulary is very specific and detailed, and everyone that each person dances with is expected to be fluent with that vocabulary - or least be on the same page. this is an unrealistic expectation in a social setting.

 

[msc]

i understand what you're trying to say, but it will confuse a lot of people.
very few competitive dancers can dance well with a lot of people. but then that's usually not one of their goals, so what they learn in lead and follow is a lot more right way/wrong way - which works because everyone's dancing to those standards.

It's got less to do with an arbitrary standard of right and wrong, and more to do with aesthetics. For example, socially, you might dance a waltz, transferring weight fully in the ballpark of each count, using small strides and a flat appearance. And if someone were to watch, they might find the dance cute, but that's about it. And there are plenty of folks that enjoy doing it in that way, and that's great.

On the other hand, you could dance a waltz with long, powerful strides, smooth weight transfer, gliding across the floor, smoothly flowing up in the rises and down in the falls, toes and heels contacting the floor precisely as a beat occurs. Both partners stretched long, making subtle changes that tune the moves to the music in the air. Folks would watch such a waltz with slack jaws and drool running down their chin. And there are some folks that enjoy doing a waltz in that fashion, and that's great too.

The problem is, to be able to do the second type of waltz requires training, both of skills and of muscles. Further, there's a tactile element, namely, it just feels better to do it in that fashion, and once you put yourself through the pain and suffering of the training to reach that level, you don't want to go back to the first type of waltz. Unfortunately, it's hard to explain this feeling very well in words, you just have to experience it for yourself.

Now there are gradations between the first case and the second case, so it's not simply a cut and dried matter, that a highly advanced dancer wouldn't derive any enjoyment from a less advanced dancer. And there are always personal considerations, friends whose lack of ability or training are offset by the fact that they enjoy the dance, and so the advanced dancer enjoys it.


But still, most who go through the training to improve want to be able to move at their maximum ability, and usually that's with a partner. Then, if they practice for 2 hours a day, it's hard to find fault if they don't feel like social dancing ... although some still will, if they have the energy.

 

[pygmalion]

Understood, msc. But what about the ordinary schlubs fighting their way up to that level? No, perhaps higher levels dancers who've fought their way up don't enjoy social-level dance anymore. But what about the scrubs (like me LOL ) who've seen the promised land, but aren't there yet?

 

[msc]

Unfortunately, Jenn, the answer is you need to find a partner who is in your ballpark ability-wise, but wanting to expand their abilities. And I know that's a tough thing to find ... and trust me on this one, it's even tougher to find it and lose it.

An outstanding instructor will help offset the lack of a partner, but still, ultimately, you need that partner to make fast progress.

 

[tsb]

i understand what you're trying to say, but it will confuse a lot of people.
very few competitive dancers can dance well with a lot of people. but then that's usually not one of their goals, so what they learn in lead and follow is a lot more right way/wrong way - which works because everyone's dancing to those standards.

It's got less to do with an arbitrary standard of right and wrong, and more to do with aesthetics.

i fail to see the distinction; perhaps right vs. wrong was a poor choice of words initially. still, all i perceive is that you've attempted to reframe the perspective of right vs. wrong by invoking the concept of "aesthetic" - which still requires an arbitrary value judgement of "pleasing" vs. somehow "less pleasing".

the remainder of your post does not speak towards the actual topic - how dancing with partners of various lead & follow abilities aids (or hinders) the development of one's lead and follow skills - with my own added caveat that this is relevant primarily when it is a goal to be able to dance well with anyone (which i added because i'm quite familiar with the text from which the quote was lifted - and the context is social dance where one is expected to dance with a lot of different partners over the course of an evening).

perhaps it would help to define what "well" means (to me, anyway), which in this instance would be using all their skills to help their partner have a good time on the floor. when it comes to leading & following it's about using (or needing) the least amount of signals to communicate. and my lead varies according to the skill level of my partner: 1) i generally need to be more attentive to lead a less skilled follower & i devote less energy to enjoying the dance; 2) why shout when all you need to do is whisper?;
what i read out of your response is that it's more about your own enjoyment. i understand that very well; dance is supposed to be a source of enjoyment & i get plenty of work dance hosting, assisting & teaching & it's generally with partners of lesser skills (or they wouldn't have to pay me or at the very least let me into the venue or class for free). so when i do go dancing solely socially i tend to dance primarily with other advanced dancers (but i never turn down a request to dance). still, it's the time spent dancing with the beginners that keeps my lead firm, unambiguous & still as light as possible.

 

[pygmalion]

Unfortunately, Jenn, the answer is you need to find a partner who is in your ballpark ability-wise, but wanting to expand their abilities. And I know that's a tough thing to find ... and trust me on this one, it's even tougher to find it and lose it.

An outstanding instructor will help offset the lack of a partner, but still, ultimately, you need that partner to make fast progress.

Yes. I'm beginning to see what you mean. :?

 

[spatten]

By far, the major reason for my dissention with the original post was to prevent future leaders from developing bad habits which may not manifest in social dancing but will eventually in competitive or advanced social dancing. It is unfortunate when one has to spend time unlearning bad habits, and I know all that well.

As both a social and competitive dancer I see no reason to distinguish two different leading styles. Learn how to lead well, and it should serve both purposes.

I am not sure that the "strength" of a lead makes all that much difference in the end. I have danced (usually in a student/coach situation) with some world class ladies and have noticed a large difference in the amount of connection they prefer. This applies mostly to Latin, as your connection is pretty fixed in Standard.

To me what is much more important to learn is to shape where you want the lady. It is equally important to learn not to take the lady off of her balance. To learn these qualities you probably have to take coachings.

I compeletly agree that a good lead will adjust his steps, styling to match the capability of the follower. I would submit that the best way to pratice this is to dance with many ladies of different experience. I think both the competitive dancer and social dancer would be helped.

Scott[/quote]

 

[msc]

what i read out of your response is that it's more about your own enjoyment

It's actually a shared enjoyment. Still, I really have no desire to offer further explanation on this matter. Enjoy your dancing, tsb.