Leader experience of follower disassociation?

[noobster]

How does increased disassociation on the part of the follower change the experience of the dance for the leader?

Coming from something that happened in a class recently. We were doing a back ocho sequence and the teacher gave me the feedback to increase torso disassociation. The ochos were not supposed to be overturned, there was plenty of room for feet, and I was not feeling a big twist lead from the guy I was dancing with (who is experienced).

I went ahead and put a bunch more twist in. (I think I have an average or a bit less than average torso flexibility for a follower, maybe about 100-110 degrees max between the hip line and the shoulder line.)

This produced an extremely positive reaction from both the observing teacher and my partner. From my side I felt like I was really exaggerating the movement in a way that wasn't led. I asked my partner if that was better and he just said "Oh yeah." I don't know him that well and didn't want to quiz him but can any regular leaders weigh in on how this improves the dance? I can keep doing it if it's good but it seems odd to intentionally exaggerate the twisting beyond what's needed/led.

 

[opendoor]

It does not improve the dance much as isolated ochos are rarely danced. But flexibility is important for circular movements. The lead often expects the follower close at his side to do saccadas effordless. Finally, I think dissociation of the follower looks good and stylish. But to improve the quality of the dance, dissociation of the leader is required.

 

[LadyLeader]

How does increased disassociation on the part of the follower change the experience of the dance for the leader?

Coming from something that happened in a class recently. We were doing a back ocho sequence and the teacher gave me the feedback to increase torso disassociation. The ochos were not supposed to be overturned, there was plenty of room for feet, and I was not feeling a big twist lead from the guy I was dancing with (who is experienced).

I went ahead and put a bunch more twist in. (I think I have an average or a bit less than average torso flexibility for a follower, maybe about 100-110 degrees max between the hip line and the shoulder line.)

This produced an extremely positive reaction from both the observing teacher and my partner. From my side I felt like I was really exaggerating the movement in a way that wasn't led. I asked my partner if that was better and he just said "Oh yeah." I don't know him that well and didn't want to quiz him but can any regular leaders weigh in on how this improves the dance? I can keep doing it if it's good but it seems odd to intentionally exaggerate the twisting beyond what's needed/led.

A leader turn lead and your turn response are maybe not synchronized. He maybe gave a medium lead but the response was small.

A large dissociation range definitely increases move options! I am dreaming about a tanda with a local follower with an extremely strong dissociation ability. (I hope she will return some day...)

 

[ArbeeNYC]

How does increased disassociation on the part of the follower change the experience of the dance for the leader?

Coming from something that happened in a class recently. We were doing a back ocho sequence and the teacher gave me the feedback to increase torso disassociation. The ochos were not supposed to be overturned, there was plenty of room for feet, and I was not feeling a big twist lead from the guy I was dancing with (who is experienced).

I went ahead and put a bunch more twist in. (I think I have an average or a bit less than average torso flexibility for a follower, maybe about 100-110 degrees max between the hip line and the shoulder line.)

This produced an extremely positive reaction from both the observing teacher and my partner. From my side I felt like I was really exaggerating the movement in a way that wasn't led. I asked my partner if that was better and he just said "Oh yeah." I don't know him that well and didn't want to quiz him but can any regular leaders weigh in on how this improves the dance? I can keep doing it if it's good but it seems odd to intentionally exaggerate the twisting beyond what's needed/led.

Hard to say without seeing what you were doing. Were these walking ochos or were you doing them while stationary? Were you using a practice hold? For stationary ochos, you need more dissociation (the follower does).

 

[TA_RA]

From my experience - a Leader shouldn't signal you the amount of dissociation. He just shows you direction and his intention and then it is up to you to determine how much body torsion you'd like to put into execution. If music permits and leader doesn't urge me to move quickly through steps I get a lot of satisfaction from slowing down at times and creating huge amount of torsion.

 

[noobster]

Hard to say without seeing what you were doing. Were these walking ochos or were you doing them while stationary? Were you using a practice hold? For stationary ochos, you need more dissociation (the follower does).

Yes stationary ochos with practice hold.

That's interesting that others don't think the amount of twist is led. I sort of feel like a bigger impulse will cause me to give more twist.

I guess I have my answer which seems to be "more twist," generally. I'm still not totally clear on how this feels different/better to the leader, vs appearing "more stylish" to onlookers.

 

[Rabbit]

I guess I have my answer which seems to be "more twist," generally. I'm still not totally clear on how this feels different/better to the leader, vs appearing "more stylish" to onlookers.

With more dissociation the follower's chest will stay in full contact with the leader in close embrace ochos rather than opening up on one side. As a leader, I think that feels better.

 

[Brummbaer]

With more dissociation the follower's chest will stay in full contact with the leader in close embrace ochos rather than opening up on one side. As a leader, I think that feels better.

I was thinking along similar lines. It depends what's being led (the idea of stepping 'around'), but basically, if that's how that step is done, it feels better; you're dancing together, not just an idea of doing that step. And opens further options.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Yes stationary ochos with practice hold.

That's interesting that others don't think the amount of twist is led. I sort of feel like a bigger impulse will cause me to give more twist.

I guess I have my answer which seems to be "more twist," generally. I'm still not totally clear on how this feels different/better to the leader, vs appearing "more stylish" to onlookers.

Oh, in that situation, you have to dissociate quite a lot. But the embrace in this case is flexible.

 

[Paja]

I guess I have my answer which seems to be "more twist," generally. I'm still not totally clear on how this feels different/better to the leader, vs appearing "more stylish" to onlookers.

Let's look on dissociation from body fysiology. Dissociation with correct axe position just charge your spring in center of your body. And THEN you can make miracles with free leg! Ganchos, boleos, planeos ... all is suddenly easy, effortless for both leader and follower. Definitelly worth to learn good dissociation. And as my teacher says, your leg beggins just under your rib cage.

 

[JournalInTime]

I'll pile on as a leader who likes lots of follower dissociation.

When I show a follower the door to a movement that requires high dissociation from both of us but get low dissociation, I end up having either an ugly, unmatched movement or having to generate the movement for the follower. I dislike having to create energy, impulse, or pivot for a follower – a follower is responsible for their own movements, just as I am responsible for mine. So, it just ends up being ugly, and feels bad, too.

The inverse is not true. When I indicate a low-dissociation movement and get a high-dissociation one, that's not bad . . . that's a bonus! It typically brings lower bodies closer together. Suddenly, the world of ganchos and other entanglements, and back sacadas, opens up. The extra dissociation creates openings to play, which is fun.

The only thing to watch out for is excessive dissociation creating overpivot directly into the leader's leg (ouch!), or breaking connection. The right amount of dissociation is the amount that maintains full torso contact and causes pivot within the frame (literally "in" if you're flexible enough . . . something like a follower back sacada).

Oh, and another bonus is that high-dissociation followers need a smaller radius to execute all movements. This makes them more desirable at crowded milongas. Low-dissociation followers get projected away from the leader in the course of moving, meaning the couple occupies too much space.

 

[noobster]

I'll pile on as a leader who likes lots of follower dissociation.

When I show a follower the door to a movement that requires high dissociation from both of us but get low dissociation, I end up having either an ugly, unmatched movement or having to generate the movement for the follower. I dislike having to create energy, impulse, or pivot for a follower – a follower is responsible for their own movements, just as I am responsible for mine. So, it just ends up being ugly, and feels bad, too.

The inverse is not true. When I indicate a low-dissociation movement and get a high-dissociation one, that's not bad . . . that's a bonus! It typically brings lower bodies closer together. Suddenly, the world of ganchos and other entanglements, and back sacadas, opens up. The extra dissociation creates openings to play, which is fun.

The only thing to watch out for is excessive dissociation creating overpivot directly into the leader's leg (ouch!), or breaking connection. The right amount of dissociation is the amount that maintains full torso contact and causes pivot within the frame (literally "in" if you're flexible enough . . . something like a follower back sacada).

Oh, and another bonus is that high-dissociation followers need a smaller radius to execute all movements. This makes them more desirable at crowded milongas. Low-dissociation followers get projected away from the leader in the course of moving, meaning the couple occupies too much space.

Thanks! Super helpful

 

[Tangogal]

Great question! I feel like I used to know the answer but I am not sure anymore. I used to feel like the leaders were inhibiting me - I was more flexible and dancing a lot. Now the dance styles have changed and sometimes I feel like I’m being led with near 0 dissociation expected.

Last week, in a class, I danced with a lot of power and physicality. I went for huge dissociation and lots of dynamism. I was definitely OTT (my own analysis).

Another follower was like a feather floating in a breeze. She danced with just enough dissociation and little to no power with the same leader. She was filmed for the ‘gram so I had a chance to analyse her movements afterwards. The other leaders and followers were quite new to tango so were busy learning the sequence .

 

[Tangogal]

Oh and if you don’t want to be filmed make sure to wear sports clothing, no make-up and tie your hair back in a rough ponytail. Works every time

 

[JournalInTime]

Now the dance styles have changed and sometimes I feel like I’m being led with near 0 dissociation expected.

Yes, there's more and more rigid-looking salon dancing. I can't say I like how it looks or feels, but it's the mode at the moment.

Another follower was like a feather floating in a breeze. She danced with just enough dissociation and little to no power with the same leader.

I leave those followers to other leaders. I specifically seek to invite the ones who, if I turn my torso 90° or more to my legs, or lunge and change levels to just above knee-on-the-floor, will mirror me. I don't want to harm a stiff dancer or drag along a feathery one who doesn't have any presence.