Leaders. How was your Tango journey?

Hmmm, this comes across as if you treat dancing like a monologue, talking TO someone as opposed to having a conversation with someone. What if the person you are talking WITH has an unexpected perspective that enriches the topic?

Sorting out 2-3 moves ahead of time also comes across as choreographed as opposed to truly improvised.

Just my 2¢

I’m sure you meant something different, though.

Also, I really don’t get why some people are afraid of Pugliese. It’s like his music is built up to be this scary thing in some people’s minds. He was THE master.
Sure if it’s an active follower that can contribute to the existing flow of the dance, a great follower can enrich that topic like you said. On the other extreme a bad active follower will disrupt the conversation, i.e throwing badly timed boleos by herself just because she feels like it.

Unless the song / movements you’re leading are very slow / simple, as a lead you do practically need to plan the next move or two in advance while you’re performing the current one to make sure they flow smoothly.
For example, if you want to do a leaders gancho into a followers open step, you generally have to setup her step to be going around you more than it is linear so it’s a lot easier.
Same with setting up a followers back sacada in certain situations.
Even for consecutive back ochos one needs to sort of setup the beginning of the next back ocho near the end of the last one so the intention is clear.
I’ve had many teachers in privates tell me I need to plan ahead more, i.e how I want to finish a movement and what direction I want to face when I begin that movement among other things.
I imagine very experienced leads may not need to actively do this as much as they may have trained to do a lot of it subconsciously.

Pugliese is tough for multiple reasons but for me it’s mainly if you don’t know the song it’s hard to predict since it’s not as formulaic as other orchestras, and I think you need a greater vocab + more space to express the dance to his music. For example for me, it just doesn’t feel musical to dance in a milonguero style with short choppy steps (i.e ocho cortados) in very small space to many of his songs. However that style is possible with lots of d’arienzo songs and is a lot more simple to be musical with.
 
..Pugliese is tough... if you don’t know the song it’s hard to predict since it’s not as formulaic as other orchestras..
Right the opposite, it is one of the most predictable orchestras. Maybe you haven't heard much tango yet. But among dancers, Pugliese is even spoken of disparagingly: know one, know all of his songs.
..for me, it just doesn’t feel musical to dance in a milonguero style with short choppy steps (i.e ocho cortados) in very small space to many of his songs..
That's exactly how it is. Tango de salón is danced to Pugliese, preferably Villa Urquiza. Anything else would be stylistic deafness. As Cacho Dante said: only the milongueros dance to d'Arienzo. We dancers dance when Pugliese plays. The golden age was stylistically very heterogeneous.
 
..knowing the song more and more gives you even more freedom for interpretation, for example if you know the next phrase contains a piano, bandeneon, violin, and a singer, and the phrase after only half those instruments — you could structure your dance around that while you’re dancing the current phrase...
That contradicts everything I know. Anyone who tries to dance like that isn't really dancing anymore! Anyone who tries to dance like that isn't listening anymore. Anyone who tries to dance like that is completely cutting themselves off from the feelings articulated in the music and the energies conveyed. It would be a kind of off-line dancing. For such a "dancer", the music would not need to be played at all. It would be enough to fade in the respective bar number. You're advocating choreographing an improvised dance. I really think that's a catastrophe!
 
As a musician and DJ who obsessively listens to and researches all manner of thing, I know and understand more than the vast majority of dancers will ever know or care to learn, and I am still learning. I literally have more musicality in my fingers than most dancers have in their whole bodies.

I still dance purely in the moment, composing on the fly. :)
 
That contradicts everything I know. Anyone who tries to dance like that isn't really dancing anymore! Anyone who tries to dance like that isn't listening anymore. Anyone who tries to dance like that is completely cutting themselves off from the feelings articulated in the music and the energies conveyed. It would be a kind of off-line dancing. For such a "dancer", the music would not need to be played at all. It would be enough to fade in the respective bar number. You're advocating choreographing an improvised dance. I really think that's a catastrophe!
I don’t think it’s choreography since you’re not planning the exact steps but rather you have an idea of how the next section of the song will play out as your dancing what’s currently being played.
It’s not like I have all of the steps memorized right when the song starts. It’s more like, “oh i’m in a very rhythmical part of the song now, and there’s gonna be a vocals singing a long sappy part within 2-3 seconds, I should set myself up to prepare movements that can express that”. And if you know the song that just becomes intuitive rather than not knowing the song / structure and trying to react to the vocals as it happens.
 
Unless the song / movements you’re leading are very slow / simple, as a lead you do practically need to plan the next move or two in advance while you’re performing the current one to make sure they flow smoothly.

This is correct, one has to know what the next movement is going to be in order to correctly time the weight transfer, activate muscles in preparation for that movement, etc. If the leader is deciding the next step at the last possible moment it's going to feel like the follower is being pulled and pushed around.
 
This is correct, one has to know what the next movement is going to be in order to correctly time the weight transfer, activate muscles in preparation for that movement, etc. If the leader is deciding the next step at the last possible moment it's going to feel like the follower is being pulled and pushed around.
Exactly, a simple example of this is asking an intermediate+ leader to lead two wide back ochos in a row (wide meaning more pivot, as opposed to linear walking ochos).

Vs asking him to lead one wide back ocho, and then asking him to lead another right after the first one has finished.

When he has the intention of two back ochos in mind, near the last 10-20% of the first back ocho he’s going to set himself(and the follower) up to be ready for the second back ocho. That is going to be much smoother and easier to follow than him deciding to lead the second back ocho on the spot immediately after the first.

Another simple example is leading a corrida (just doing a walking quick quick slow), you have to give intention for the first two quick quicks before your first step for it to lead well, it’s very difficult to lead a quick and right at the end try to do another quick on the spot.
If you’re trying to lead a longer one like quick-quick-quick-quick-slow you may have to plan that 5 steps in advance.

Depending on the follower, song, space, there are tons of situations where I may plan 2-5 steps in advance which is basically the next (0-3) seconds but I wouldn’t consider that choreography since it happens in real time as i’m dancing. I feel as I get better those numbers will probably go down as I will better intuitively react to the music/space.

Edit: Actually two very advanced dancers may be able to do the corrida one step at a time, but I don’t think that’s the norm
 
..Another simple example is leading.. quick quick slow.. it’s very difficult to lead a quick and right at the end try to do another quick on the spot. If you’re trying to lead a longer one like quick-quick-quick-quick-slow you may have to plan that 5 steps in advance..
Please excuse me, but I think you are trying to lower the general level of dance. I expect a beginner to be able to do small and wide steps in normal and double time and in different rhythmic combinations. What is your agenda, why do you keep posting that the simplest skills are advanced level? Do you lack a comparison, or what are your motives?
 
Also, I really don’t get why some people are afraid of Pugliese. It’s like his music is built up to be this scary thing in some people’s minds. He was THE master.
A toss up between Troilo and Pugliese maybe. But you are right, Pugliese at his best can be absolutely sublime and a dream to dance to. His later works can be difficult though.
 
If you’re trying to lead a longer one like quick-quick-quick-quick-slow you may have to plan that 5 steps in advance.
No, not five steps in advance, but when you get close to the point of that quick corrida, you do need some extra projection so your follower knows what's coming.
 
Depending on the follower, song, space, there are tons of situations where I may plan 2-5 steps in advance which is basically the next (0-3) seconds
Depending on how quickly you are moving, five steps in advance, can be much longer than three seconds! Personally, I don't plan anything in advance.
 
Please excuse me, but I think you are trying to lower the general level of dance. I expect a beginner to be able to do small and wide steps in normal and double time and in different rhythmic combinations. What is your agenda, why do you keep posting that the simplest skills are advanced level? Do you lack a comparison, or what are your motives?
Perhaps it is simple to you, you said that salsa is harder than tango so maybe this dance is just quizzically easy to you?
 
No, not five steps in advance, but when you get close to the point of that quick corrida, you do need some extra projection so your follower knows what's coming.
exactly you need that extra projection so you slightly need to plan in advance, it can’t be “oh i want to do some more quick quicks” at the end of the first two unless you have a super sense of reaction
 

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