Leaders. How was your Tango journey?

[ArbeeNYC]

bear in mind that his cultural perspective is from BsAs,

LOL. Given that tango is from BsAs, as well as his place of origin, it's hardly surprising.

 

[Brummbaer]

LOL. Given that tango is from BsAs, as well as his place of origin, it's hardly surprising.

But you give a contemporary cultural viewpoint from NYC, others from Canada, UK, Germany and elsewhere in Europe. Social AT isn't homogeneous, however much there are claims to a compliance to common tradition (which, in any case, was based on immigration from diverse cultures). There isn't one absolute truth of social AT - even from BsAs. Many instances of milongas throughout the world (e.g. Encuentros, practilonga) do not conform to some old stereotype (myth?) of the BsAs culture. The OP's reported experiences certainly don't fit those stereotypes. If they did, then he wouldn't be dancing at a milonga! So, the point is that whatever is described in other videos from Sabá is from another cultural perspective - although sometimes he gives a world view.

 

[opendoor]

Was this such a great problem and study for the great tanguer@s of an earlier time?

On average, we dance much better today than they did back then.

And didactics have developed further in Europe. The old milongueros that I experienced around the turn of the millennium only knew “sink or swim” as a teaching method.

 

[Bailango]

Confinement of the pandemic were quite extreme and long-lasting here – at one point taking the form a police-enforced curfew – so when restrictions were lifted, two things happened: (1) tango schools started to recruit more aggressively than I've ever seen, in an effort to regain their financial footing after monumental losses that almost killed them off, and (2) people desperately sought any and all social activities, and had fewer choices because financial losses actually did kill off many former choices. It's a bit like new growth after a forest fire. Tango's old age and ties to an older, more conservative community with money paid off here, providing enough ballast to weather the storm.

USA was more relaxed than Europe. Only Japan, China, Taiwan, Korea were more stringent. Except for China, the rest were closed to outsiders but opened up to insiders earlier than in the USA and Europe.

California was the strictest in the USA. Then too tango had restarted in early to mid 2021 with numbers and mask restrictions. I don’t think we ever had any underground or clandestine tango or any other dancing during 2020. People did start dancing outdoors between the delta and omicron waves here. Only a small numbers took part as most people were being careful.

Each scene has its high and low tides independent of another one. That makes it hard to gauge what’s happening globally. I don’t think the number of European events have declined. There is also an economic impact of Europe not doing so well for the past few years.

 

[Bailango]

Last year, I had two short tandas with two young women with zero partner dance experience. Really zero. The only thing that worked a bit were side steps and back steps (for them). Even ochos were very difficult.

I danced with a few of follower friends who had zero tango experience but plenty of experience in other partner dances. When dancing the very first time without any lessons in the ronda, they were dancing better than half the tangueras in the scene. They could hold the balance and disassociate naturally without being told do so. Neither they had any challenge dancing in close embrace coming from more open hold partner dancing experience. The reverse hasn’t been true. The leaders coming into tango struggle. Only @opendoor is an exception to that

 

[Bailango]

Here is a youtube video about Tango projecting technique. Not sure how good this is. It is only about feet though...

There are several similar exercises. It's not just about 'feet'. It's about how you move the leg to achieve that. It's about giving that 'intention', and the follower accepting that.

I have taken classes from many instructors where projection/intention was part of the lesson. I done many exercises. I cannot remember any class whole of it dedicated to teach how to project.

And I have continuously refined how I project or convey my intention. I have got better and better at it every year. All I can say is, it is not only about the feet only or moving legs. That is where most teaching of the projection starts. But it is not that simple. As I refined my own projection technique it is a full body involvement - feet, legs, waist, hips, core, frame, back shoulder muscles, chest, and disassociation. There is also question of are you projecting from ground up, neutral or top down. What I mean is how the momentum in your own body is building up or traveling. Because of the way I am able to project, I can synch with the follower very quickly without having to synch the breathing

 

[Bailango]

Was this such a great problem and study for the great tanguer@s of an earlier time?

Some acquired and developed it unknowingly. May be there were discussions about how leader x feels better than the rest. I am sure followers must have been the first to describe how a good projection felt and then people started breaking it down consciously. Since there was no systematic didactic training/teaching back then.

 

[Bailango]

That wasn't because those teachers were trying to protect trade secrets. It was because they were teaching social dance, to which those techniques are irrelevant. Someone who uses those methods is, at a minimum, taking control. Taken to the extreme, there's a degree of "exert light pressure on your partner or invade their space somewhat, so they have no choice but to move a certain way, perhaps because they're destabilized by the act." That's unequal, and turns what should be a somatic conversation into a somatic lecture. Appalling behavior at the milonga.

This!!

I want my dance to be a conversation. That is when I enjoy it most. I can lecture but find it not so enjoyable. There are followers who like to be lectured. Some are friends.

 

[Bailango]

There are leaders who see themselves as masters of the show. They want to express the music their way and have the follower receive the music only through them, not their ears. They have a specific vision in mind for the follower's step in service to expression.

@opendoor

There are leaders who consider themselves 50% of the dance. They want to express the music collaboratively with their partner, via proposal and counter-proposal: leader proposes, follower "listens," follower reacts as they feel the moment, leader "listens," leader responds, ad infinitum.

@pianistamediano

 

[Brummbaer]

On average, we dance much better today than they did back then.

And didactics have developed further in Europe. The old milongueros that I experienced around the turn of the millennium only knew “sink or swim” as a teaching method.

I agree, but we don't need to delve down into magic formulae, martial arts, or other 'wellness' concepts and beyond to achieve that.

On one side we're considering a social dance that pretty much anyone should be able to do, like 'walk'; on the other it's deteriorating into a ballroom strategy of additional concepts you must have just to learn.

 

[JournalInTime]

Was this such a great problem and study for the great tanguer@s of an earlier time?

Interesting sub-discussion!

Recently, my partner and I have been working with another teacher alongside our coach. He isn't our coach's dance partner, but has his own teaching partner (also his life partner), and has a totally different tango pedigree. Part of that pedigree is having been taught by a milonguero who started in the 1940s. He recently proposed a system of generations (longer than human generations, more like 35- or 40-year chunks):

1st-generation tango teachers, like his master, made everything up. They had no teachers! They watched dances around them – African traditional, European salon, colonial folkloric, all of it – stealing and sharing ideas, and also trying to outdo one another by keeping secrets. They accept "impossible": Contrary to some claims, they were using the elastic embrace and dancing boleos, ganchos, patadas, back sacadas, soltadas, saltos, and even lifts in the 1920s. When my new teacher started his apprenticeship with his master, the first steps he was taught were crazy stuff that would out-crazy tango nuevo!

2nd-generation teachers, including my new teacher and my coach, learned from 1st-generation teachers. They were shown steps and told to figure them out, and then judged on how well they figured them out. They were not taught technique. Most of their tango journey consisted not of making up steps, like the 1st generation, but of classifying steps and developing technique for steps. Many acquired technique from formal dance instruction in other styles – especially ballet! (My coach is a former ballerina.)

3rd-generation teachers, like most under 50 these days, learned from 2nd-generation teachers. They were taught steps with technique, and had to make up nothing in the dance. Their focus was (is) pedagogical methodologies: How to teach steps and technique quickly and efficiently to anybody who signs up for a class. This is the generation we're discussing when we talk about added problems and solutions. Where the 1st generation stole steps from other dances and the 2nd generation stole technique from other dances, the 3rd generation stole instructional methods and studio philosophies from other dances, most often ballroom dances.

I'm not claiming that this is right, only that it makes sense to me.

Anyway, my two instructors both expressed a concern that if this pattern keeps up, nobody in tango will be an artist. They'll all be dance robots dancing perfectly classified steps with overly clean technique. So, our new work consists of rolling things back, the teachers showing my partner and me what's possible and challenging us to be creative, not technical. It remains to be seen if any of the people involved are actually capable of this, but it'll be fun to try.

 

[Rabbit]

Anyway, my two instructors both expressed a concern that if this pattern keeps up, nobody in tango will be an artist. They'll all be dance robots dancing perfectly classified steps with overly clean technique. So, our new work consists of rolling things back, the teachers showing my partner and me what's possible and challenging us to be creative, not technical. It remains to be seen if any of the people involved are actually capable of this, but it'll be fun to try.

I'm still waiting for you to realise that you don't actually need the teachers

 

[pianistamediano]

I'm still waiting for you to realise that you don't actually need the teachers

Teachers are useful in that they should have more knowledge and experience in fields or areas or things that you're interested in. They're no harm as long as you critically analyse and consider what they impart without accepting things blindly, which is what the vast majority of class-goers do, hence the slow convergence of dance styles and death of individuality over time.

 

[pianistamediano]

I agree, but we don't need to delve down into magic formulae, martial arts, or other 'wellness' concepts and beyond to achieve that.

I dislike the way some people try to shove concepts from Eastern philosophy into tango. Especially egregious are fellow Asians who should know better. Imagine charging for workshops on Tango Zen! Chan Park commercialising Zen of all things is ridiculous.

 

[opendoor]

I'm still waiting for you to realise that you don't actually need the teachers

Of course you've got a point here. But the quote you are referring to in your answer isn't mine. Think you know that my English isn't that good. Perhaps an AI language model answered in my opinion?