Leaders. How was your Tango journey?

[Pharaoh]

Hello, just curious how was your journey as leaders in Tango? How long it took you?

So, I am in a big city with various Tango studios. I've been taking tango group lessons for 6 months. The issue is at practicas there are no beginners. I take lessons in 2 studios and out of 30 beginners taking lessons, I am probably the only one who goes to practicas. Other beginner followers don't go to practicas for various reasons, (other commitments etc.) At practicas, I only see followers at intermediate level who have been doing Tango for several years. Once they dance with me, and learn that I am the beginner, they don't want to do anything with me anymore. Some ignore, some greet but don't want to dance. I manage to get several tandas during practicas but it is hard to get dances. All followers want to dance with higher level leaders. In rare cases, I've seen some beginner followers who don't get dances as well. One of them complained to me that she paid for practica, did not get any dances, and decided to not attend practicas anymore as it was not worth the investment. Unfortunately, beginner followers at practicas (and probably just 1 or 2 in total) are not from my studios, so we may not do the same curriculum and even when I dance with them it is not easy as they may stumble, and you get judged by other sitting followers looking at how you dance, and who may decide not to dance with you. I am fine with basic walk and steps but this is too boring for advanced followers. So, I started adding ochos, giros, paradas, throw in sacada. But it is not always that smooth, and I am kind of following the same patterns that I was taught in the class. Anyway, the journey is rough, I may run out of followers eventually lol. The instructor is moving me to intermediate class now. So, I may end up doing advanced classes eventually, and be good in the class, but I will probably suck at dances because there are no followers to practice unless I end up in the class with advanced followers eventually, and they would want to practice moves. Though, this all is kind of weird, people ignore you at practicas for a long time, and then suddenly become friends and dance with you. I would not want to really dance with people who ignored me for a long time. But I guess all of them are advanced and I don't have a choice lol. What else am I doing? Listening tango music while working, and dancing at home by myself practicing moves. Anyway, this is my rant. Just curious how other leader's journey.

 

[Naddrin Kentlar]

I don't interact with people socially much. A random long distance wave or ack here and there. So for me strictly from a dancing point of view, it took around 3 years for a follower that I could feel they're a good dancer to want to dance a second, third .. tanda with me in the same event. I didn't do much practicas as I don't really have access to many, and the few I've been to require too much social interaction for my taste.

 

[opendoor]

...Once they ..learn that I am the beginner, they don't want to do anything with me anymore...

I always said my saying "but I'm a beginner". At some point the followers started, stop it, we were all beginners.

..I've seen some beginner followers who don't get dances as well. One of them complained to me that she paid for practica, did not get any dances, and decided to not attend practicas anymore..

The way you describe the events, it doesn't seem to be about practicals at all, but about milongas. The former is informal, the latter formal.

Just curious how other leader's journey.

In the first few months, learning tango is actually social learning. You should build up a peer group with whom you can go on your way into the tango world. The length of the address list of your contacts in your phone is extremely important. It carried me gently through the first four years and the list is still maintained today.

 

[Brummbaer]

See also the old thread how much practice till we went to our first milonga.

It sounds as if the practicas you're going to are little more than informal milongas, so-called practilonga (or similar forms).

You went to learn to dance, but have the interminable technique until you're good enough. Although you do mention ochos, giros and paradas. A question: can you lead an ocho? Or a cross? Or just some expected learning sequence in class? All are valid, but the key is communicating those elements to the follower.

In retrospect, we went too early, but it was also necessary to know what you don't know. I'm grateful to those better followers who helped. Who told me what they couldn't pick up from my supposed lead, or when it was too forceful.

Going to a real practica where you get some guidance, to the informal milonga where you can make mistakes and learn, and moving on to those more 'select' milongas where rules (codigos) matter to some, and where you're on your own, or some social group. It takes time to develop. You think you've got something, and then you move to the next issue.

 

[Numawan]

I would say that what you describe is quite typical of what most people experience when they start partner dancing. I myself experienced many of the issues you mentioned. Not by accident, it's called 'beginner's hell'!

I take lessons in 2 studios and out of 30 beginners taking lessons, I am probably the only one who goes to practicas. Other beginner followers don't go to practicas for various reasons, (other commitments etc.)

A suggestion perhaps. Ask your teacher(s) to make an announcement at the end of a class stating that you are looking for some followers to attend the practicas together (plus perhaps some other beginning leaders as well). Sometimes, a more formal announcement like that will bring some people out of the woods.

 

[TTanguero]

My advice, based on my own rather happy experience compared to many of those who started at the same time as me, is:

1. Be musical above all else. Only a minority of followers care about the complexity of your steps; almost all care about your musicality.

2. Aim to do a few things well rather than lots of things badly.

3. Listen to your followers when dancing – when I was first introduced to the concept of collaborative dance at just four months in, it seemed absurd, but it was the key to getting dances way beyond my pay-grade, and also provided relief from the stress of not feeling like I had enough to "do"

4. Make friends. Group classes with fellow beginners are a tough way to learn, but they are where you make friends, Same with pre-milonga classes. When followers have been surveyed about how they choose their leaders, liking the leader as a person always ranks very highly.

5. Practice cabeceo religiously. Your cabeceo skills are arguably more important than your dance skills when it comes to how much time you spend dancing – and spending more time dancing is how you improve your dance skills anyway.

 

[Numawan]

Roughly speaking, I would say it took me about 1.5-2 years to get out of beginner's hell.

 

[Brummbaer]

Roughly speaking, I would say it took me about 1.5-2 years to get out of beginner's hell.

And, sometimes, we still return

 

[Brummbaer]

Let me qualify some of the above:

1. Be musical above all else. Only a minority of followers care about the complexity of your steps; almost all care about your musicality.

Yes, musicality is important. You're listening to AT dance music at home, which is good. Learn about some of the orchestras and their style. And some of the, too few, newer offerings. Have some favourites.

Absolute beginner followers don't care about musicality. They're in the same beginner's hell jail as you are! They will care about musicality when you've got some basic vocabulary with some fluidity. You can have a great dance leading an advanced follower just with simple moves - if you employ those with musicality.

5. Practice cabeceo religiously. Your cabeceo skills are arguably more important than your dance skills when it comes to how much time you spend dancing – and spending more time dancing is how you improve your dance skills anyway.

Certainly learn to do cabeceo. You will need to use it. Observe what's used at your venues. But no one in your beginner group, your social group, your peer group, or informally, will care. In fact, you're going to look a bit odd in some locales walking up to someone to do a forced cabeceo.

 

[Brummbaer]

dancing at home by myself practicing moves.

Practicing with a mop, or a broom handle, as the 'follower' is useful! You can demonstrate your 'musicality', and they don't complain.

BTW, I presume you've now got beyond checking your feet?

 

[daisy_r]

A few questions and suggestions...

Have you tried different practicas? Maybe some of them will be a little bit smaller, friendlier, and have more beginners. I find that the bigger an event is the easier it is for someone to go unnoticed, so looking for smaller practicas might be better, even if most of the dancers there are more advanced than you

In your six months of tango, have you befriended any of your fellow beginners? If not, I suggest you prioritise this. For me, friendships in tango are essential, they will keep you coming back even when it feels like you're not progressing as fast as you'd like, and these friendships can be very rewarding in their own right. If you have some friends, then check to see if any of them can go with you to a practica or if they're willing to practice with you alone sometime.

Unfortunately, beginner followers at practicas (and probably just 1 or 2 in total) are not from my studios, so we may not do the same curriculum

For this, it shouldn't really matter if you guys have done the same curriculum. Tango is a social dance, part of the fun is being able to dance with someone who has learned from a different teacher, in a different city, or even a different country. You could even view this as an advantage because it will put your leading skills to the a more realistic test.

and even when I dance with them it is not easy as they may stumble, and you get judged by other sitting followers looking at how you dance, and who may decide not to dance with you.

Yes, you're practicing and so is the follower, you are both going to make mistakes, that's what practicas are for. Remember that you are on a journey and you are at the practica to learn and to work, and so is your partner. Don't concern yourself too much with what onlookers may be seeing or thinking, people are usually way more concerned with themselves than with other people anyway. If you stick with tango, if you keep coming back to practice and improve, if you're willing to take feedback, people will notice that too.

Though, this all is kind of weird, people ignore you at practicas for a long time, and then suddenly become friends and dance with you. I would not want to really dance with people who ignored me for a long time. But I guess all of them are advanced and I don't have a choice lol.

Speaking as a follower, sometimes we have to protect ourselves. Some leaders are condescending, uncomfortable, clumsy, and sometimes even dangerous, and dancing with someone requires a degree of trust so it may take some followers a while before they decide to give you a chance. For me there are also days when I just don't have the headspace to dance with certain people, either because of their dancing or because of their personality. Consider the possibility that some people may, in the long run, be doing you a favour by not dancing with you too soon.

Lastly, if there aren't other friendly practicas around, it might be time to start going to milongas. Practicas are great because you should be able to try moves that aren't polished yet, and ask for feedback, but if you can stick to the moves that are working and keep it simple, comfortable, and musical, then you should be ready to try a milonga. Again, if you have friends in tango I highly recommend going in a group with them. Go early, in most places the music tends to be more beginner friendly earlier on and the dance floor is usually less busy, and if you decide to dance try to pick an easy tanda. Remember that you don't have to dance the entire tanda, in fact, I'd recommend starting out by just inviting someone for the last song of the tanda as it puts less pressure on both of you.

 

[TTanguero]

Absolute beginner followers don't care about musicality. They're in the same beginner's hell jail as you are!

My experience was very different! My fellow beginner followers cared very much about musicality, first because it's something to enjoy when everything else is hard, and because it's easier to follow a musical leader because there's some predictability to at least the timings. You know they will lead you to step on the beat, and will probably do something different at the end of a phrase.

 

[Brummbaer]

My experience was very different! My fellow beginner followers cared very much about musicality, first because it's something to enjoy when everything else is hard, and because it's easier to follow a musical leader because there's some predictability to at least the timings. You know they will lead you to step on the beat, and will probably do something different at the end of a phrase.

YMMV. Musicality is good, and needs to be encouraged. However the beginner follower is probably wondering more about what the beginner lead is attempting to do. An ocho? Backwards or forwards? A cross? Was that a giro? Mind my toes! You got the wrong leg again! WTF was that? Once beyond that stage and it's more fluid, then musicality can come in. You need some moves to express musicality. Standing still is a 'hug'; and walking to the beat, or phrasing, is, well, walking (even if you're striving for that AT look and projection in a musical way...). Musicality is not priority one when it's about survival and your feet with a beginner leader.

Of course, you get to a novice stage, and it should start to be more significant.

And then we have the beginner lead with some helpful, but advanced, follower at a practica (not an informal milonga). Sure, try for musicality, but it's scary, and not priority one.

 

[Pharaoh]

Thank you for the feedback and replies.

We have Milongas and Practilongas (they call them practicas) I haven't seen anything else. My understanding is Milongas are not for practice and feedback, this is where you only do things that you are good at. Practicas would be for practicing. But, I noticed, most of the followers come to just dance at our Practilongas, not practicing anything. When I dance, I ask a lot "What do you want to practice, anything specific?" A lot of them don't know the answer to this question, and reply they just want to dance.

During Practilongas cabaceo is mostly used, so I do it if I want to dance with someone. Sometimes, followers sit next to me, I make a conversation about something to build a connection. We end up talking for several minutes. This usually leads to a dance. There are advanced followers who would not dance with me in general, but we have good relationship. So, I made known to them that I will not cabaceo them (they thanked me for this), so if we end up talking, they may invite me to dance themselves if they feel like it. I know this is a charity case, but this on them to initiate, there is no obligation as I'd rather have a good relationship then pressure them into dancing with me. I always thank them for this.

One studio rotates people to change partners each song or two which is good. At another studio, instructor will assign you a partner, and you are stuck with the partner for the whole class which is not that great (matching weak one with strong one, or equals). At the end of the classes it is always announced to go to practicas, exchange phone numbers, go as the group, but no one usually goes. I am trying to identify a good follower right now to partner up outside of the class, but it is not that easy - not a lot of them go to practicas, practice at home, miss classes. After a week they forgot what was taught during the last class as they weren't practicing. And I need someone more motivated: I practice at home everyday to remember the moves at least 10-15 minutes to the music. So, I am going to next level classes soon to see what kind of people attend. At some point, I will probably end up in the class with advanced followers who go to practicas. Maybe, I will be able to find a partner then... There are also intermediate classes before Practilongas. I may soon be able to take these classes and connect with advanced followers there. I've tried these classes 3 months ago when I just knew a basic step. It was too much for me. But I think I will be ready in couple of months.

I've navigated through busy Practilongas in the line of dance without bumping into people. So, I can try Milongas. Although, I may run into the same advanced people who go to Practilongas, but who knows. I will be trying all the Practilongas in the area (locations). I haven't tried all of them yet. I think there are couple left that I haven't been to yet.

I don't look at my feet when walking, doing basic steps or back ochos. I do look at my feet when I am going into sacada, parada, americana, giros (just to make sure I don't step on follower's foot) I am still a combo dancer. I try to polish what I was taught in the class. Unfortunately, I can't lead ochos, paradas, sacadas, giros from any position. I haven't seen/practiced that amount of combinations, so I can improvise on the fly without thinking.

Practicing with a broom or chair would be awesome. Don't know what my neighbor downstairs will say

I can dance on beat and have been doing this well. I am trying to work on pauses now or dancing on different instruments. Although this messes things up. For some, dancing on beat is boring. But I don't know the music that well yet. When I dance, it is easy with Di Sarli. When it stops, everything stops. With other composers, there is stop, but then suddenly a new instrument starts with a new theme, and I wonder why did I stop. Or follower may complain that I don't dance to the beat.

So, I will work on classes, trying to partner up, getting contacts, going to different places... I may also stick to the basic steps (boring) and things that I do well, and just introduce only 1 new element to practice with each follower, so they don't see that I struggle too much and use them for target practice. But, of course, I am not there to practice basic steps. I want to practice new techniques from the class. But, I guess I would need to make it enjoyable for follower and not think about what I want if she just wants to have a dance only and have things smooth.

 

[Brummbaer]

Practicing with a broom or chair would be awesome.

Couldn't find the example I remembered, but see this:

And then hold the broom handle horizontally across the elbows for the abrazo.

Obviously not as good as a real partner

I do look at my feet when I am going into sacada, parada, americana, giros (just to make sure I don't step on follower's foot)

You need to know where your, and your partner's, feet and legs are. If you look, then it affects your posture. If you're in an open hold, then your partner may think you're looking down elsewhere. Your head is heavy, so it will mess up those pivots if it's not over your centre. The same goes for followers and ochos.

Presume you have appropriate dance shoes without a welt? You need to 'feel' for your partner's foot. You're leading your partner's feet and legs. They should be where you led them - and attached to the body you're embracing in the usual place. As a beginner you aim to miss - and with your foot on or slightly above the floor, and then move and 'feel' for your partner. With experience, that's one move. They won't appreciate shoes with a welt if you get it wrong!

I want to practice new techniques from the class.

And that's what every beginner wants, despite what the experienced say about learning. You do need to build vocabulary - but don't try to learn beyond your capability to remember and reproduce. It gets better with more experience.

Useful advice I received as a beginner at a milonga was to treat the dance like a string of pearls. 'Walking' is the string; plan and pause; and then put in your 'pearl' (with musicality, of course). Oh, and learn to lead rotation in place (e.g. lead ochos around a circle, giro - normal and contra), or some steps for a small space (cuna, cunita, rock step). That 'walk' can get blocked.