Leaders. How was your Tango journey?

[Brummbaer]

Is there really even a demand for this anywhere except Buenos Aires?

You've not noticed Strictly/DWTS on terrestrial media? Nor the travelling shows around the country, some telling the 'story' of AT? There are AT dance teachers, who also teach social, who choreograph these.

Recently, in the UK, had a demo of social vs ballroom vs choreographed. The 'choreographed' wasn't my scene, but the guy who performed that was a very good dancer.

I'd say 'demand' was low, but it's part of a wider 'dance' training.

 

[JournalInTime]

You've not noticed Strictly/DWTS on terrestrial media? Nor the travelling shows around the country, some telling the 'story' of AT? There are AT dance teachers, who also teach social, who choreograph these.

Recently, in the UK, had a demo of social vs ballroom vs choreographed. The 'choreographed' wasn't my scene, but the guy who performed that was a very good dancer.

I'd say 'demand' was low, but it's part of a wider 'dance' training.

I can say with certainty that show tango on TV, show tango on the stage (including one of my city's biggest stages), and show tango at restaurant-cabarets are all alive and well where I live. Any tie to or mention of Buenos Aires is optional – as often as not, that's limited to a vaguely insensitive nod to Latin culture as sexy, or a bizarre pastiche of Gardel and Eva Perón references.

This creates most of the demand for tango classes here. For every person who shows up wanting to learn social tango, or who is even aware that tango is Argentine, there are several who show up wanting to learn the dance they saw on TV, on stage, or at cabarets. I did the asking at the studio. "Promenade with rose clutched in the teeth, her in fishnets, him wearing a fedora" is alive, well, and overwhelming.

This demand is met by choreography and show-tango classes. Those aren't the most numerous classes offered, but they're the ones that look like what most newcomers expect. What most newcomers find is traditional, social tango classes . . . which somehow remain more numerous. However, many drop out because it isn't show tango; others go to the milonga and try to dance show tango anyway.

It doesn't help that our social tango teachers react to this poorly and try to make their classes even more conservatively traditional than they need to be, believing they can combat the trend that way. All that does is make social tango look snobby and old-fashioned, which is a bad look.

Also, plenty of non-dedicated dance schools here offer "Argentine tango" as one dance off a long menu of dances, and it's taught by the same people who teach Latin and/or other ballroom dances. We get their students at the milonga. We also get people who learned exactly one choreography to one tango (most often Por una cabeza) for a wedding.

I'm skeptical that this isn't true everywhere outside of Buenos Aires. I think those who don't see it where they live don't want to see it. They're engaging in the same game as those tango teachers I mentioned who are pushing back against a trend they dislike. I can believe that in some regions, these rose-biters and TV wannabes might dance at different places from social AT dancers, making their presence easier to disregard.

 

[JournalInTime]

PS: I bit a rose, once. It was a barman joke.

 

[Brummbaer]

What most newcomers find is traditional, social tango classes . . . which somehow remain more numerous. However, many drop out because it isn't show tango; others go to the milonga and try to dance show tango anyway.

And it's against this background that beginners turn up to learn [Argentine] Tango.

So, you either get them for a course, and then they leave, or you have to demonstrate within that first set of lessons sufficient about social AT that they want to learn more. A 'school' in a metropolis, or a university, thinks it has a ready, renewable supply. Move the age range up, and it's a more limited pool with different goals.

However, I do think it's moved on with the shows such as Strictly/DWTS. Over the years I've noticed a decrease in those inspired to actually dance themselves compared with the 'sparklies' who like the glamour, the sexy dance, the scandal.

Other similar shows seem to have a similar, depressing, impact on their target.

 

[Rabbit]

You've not noticed Strictly/DWTS on terrestrial media? Nor the travelling shows around the country, some telling the 'story' of AT?

Strictly is packaged up with ballroom dances and I actually haven't noticed any travelling shows apart from the ones that tour from Argentina

 

[Pharaoh]

Thank you. Very interesting discussion.

For shoes, I use standard ballroom dance shoes (no welt). Those ones are not good enough?

I am too old to perform and only interested in social dancing. That being said, by show tango you mean ballroom Tango? We have ballroom studios as well. They teach Tango and Valse.. They even have their own socials where they dance with each other at the their studios. Not sure how would their moves transition to Tango Argentino, but embrace is different for sure. What would happen if Tango Argentino dancer starts dancing socially Valse or Tango with a ballroom dancer? Styles and moves are too different?

So, this is an interesting culture. Beginners struggle to get skills and acceptance. Then they become (if they don't drop out) intermediate-advanced and they treat other beginners the same way as they were treated. And the cycle goes on. I did not try to be the follower, but is this so painful to dance with beginners?

 

[Brummbaer]

Strictly is packaged up with ballroom dances

Yes, for dances - and some parady of AT. But they're dancers, not just ballroom dancers. And some of London's finest social AT teachers have provided AT choreography over the years.

I actually haven't noticed any travelling shows apart from the ones that tour from Argentina

Look at the lesser theatres in the provinces. I've spotted 2 or 3. Tailing off now as Spring approaches.

And, of course, some of the UK's most notable arrived in shows, choreographed shows, and appeared in new offerings. But that era has passed.

 

[Pharaoh]

Thank you for the replies. Very interesting discussion.

For shoes, I use ballroom shoes without welts. Are those ones not enough?

I am too old to perform and interested only in social dancing. By show tango, do you mean ballroom Tango? We have ballroom studios as well which teach ballroom Vals and Tango. I've noticed the embrace is different. Otherwise, are there too many differences between those styles and Tango Argentino/Vals? What if ballroom dancer met up with Tango Argentino dancer. Could they dance? Those ballroom studios have socials/practicas as well where their dancers dance with each other. I haven't tried going to those places.

It is an interesting culture. Beginners struggle to get dances, then become good, and then they treat new beginners how they were treated. And the cycle goes on...
Is this really so painful to dance with beginners?

 

[opendoor]

..What would happen if Tango Argentino dancer starts dancing socially Valse or Tango with a ballroom dancer? Styles and moves are too different?

You have to learn the basic leading-following technique called "projecting". Seems your teachers didn't teach you that. So they left you out in the rain and didn't tell you the formula. Replace them with human, sovereign specimens. Anyone who has learned to project can lead any follower, ballroom followers, even beginners who don't yet know the figure. You were intentionally left in the dark. As a beginner, you have to change teachers at least ten times until you find one who tells you the truth. I think you still have nine teacher changes ahead of you, right?

 

[JournalInTime]

A 'school' in a metropolis, or a university, thinks it has a ready, renewable supply.

Here, it functionally does. The retention rate is appalling (<20%), but the registration rate is steady even since the pandemic. My coach has a steady stream of people who take classes and vanish – wash, rinse, repeat. Two social dancers here teach at one of our four largest universities (which has 45,000 students), so they have an infinite, renewable pool of youngsters away from home for the first time in a big city where they have no friends; these students rarely stay with tango.

Over the years I've noticed a decrease in those inspired to actually dance themselves compared with the 'sparklies' who like the glamour, the sexy dance, the scandal.

Same.

When I started dancing in 2013, no women wore fishnets and the only person with a fedora was this one weird old man; now it's all over the place. In 2013, the bar gossip was primarily about who was being a snob about inviting whom; now it's about who is "dancing" horizontally with whom. A couple of younger followers here show up to pick up, and toss their head dramatically, pose, and get their legs everywhere while dancing. The stereotype has steadily climbed at the expense of technical skills.

For shoes, I use standard ballroom dance shoes (no welt). Those ones are not good enough?

They're fine! What matters the most is "no welt." After that, it's personal preference.

I know three sellers of tango shoes here, who claim that the best-selling men's shoes have very low heels; the higher kind aren't popular, and visiting maestros never, ever buy them. I also know that thicker or more rigid soles that make it harder to "feel the floor" are likewise unpopular. However, if you want to dance in hard, high shoes, you can . . . just no welt, which is deadly.

That being said, by show tango you mean ballroom Tango?

No. Ballroom tango can, in theory, be danced socially. It's very different from Argentine tango, and more often seen in showier settings, but it isn't show tango. I mean tango escenario, which is Argentine tango made larger, more aerial, and more visually dramatic, with deep lunges, held poses, lifts, and all that jazz. Honestly, it's about as different from social AT as ballroom tango is, but it's technically descended from AT and not ballroom tango.

What would happen if Tango Argentino dancer starts dancing socially Valse or Tango with a ballroom dancer? Styles and moves are too different?

Everybody has an opinion on that. Mine is that the embrace is too different for this to be fun. If you could finesse the embrace somehow, I think AT could absorb ballroom movements because AT is inherently improvisational and can fit any combination of pauses, weight shifts, displacements, pivots, etc. to the music. I think ballroom people would die if you brought AT movements into their dance, because they have strict judging standards that restrict permitted steps.

I did not try to be the follower, but is this so painful to dance with beginners?

My girlfriend is a very advanced follower who also accompanied lower-level dancers at the studio for a time. Unfortunately, the answer straight from her mouth is, "Yes, frequently it is painful."

Due to having to learn floorcraft and to initiate steps at the same time as learning the steps themselves, the technique for those steps, musicality, etc., leaders have a harder learning curve at the beginning than followers do (this eventually flips, but we're discussing beginners here). Some leaders get frustrated and decide to replace technique with force. They end up jerking followers around with their arms, pushing them around like brooms, crushing them in a hug to control their movements, and so on. As most leaders are men and most followers are women, and most men are bigger and stronger than most women, these things can cause physical pain or even actual harm.

Anyone who has learned to project can lead any follower, ballroom followers, even beginners who don't yet know the figure.

Please be aware that this comes with the rider "up to a point."

I know about this approach, having had to learn it to accompany classes and assist teachers. It exists, it's real, but it has limits. There are entire families of figures that do not work no matter how adept the leader is at this because they require follower exposure. The lead might clearly project what's needed, but the follower might not believe that's what's needed, and not follow . . . at which point a bad leader might shift from projection to replacing technique with force . . .

 

[Brummbaer]

For shoes, I use standard ballroom dance shoes (no welt). Those ones are not good enough?

Can be ok. I started in ballroom dance shoes with suede soles. The venue had drinks spilled on the floor, kids parties a jund wakes before we got the floor. I changed to leather with a split sole - easier to clean and, for me, better for circular movements. I also use dance trainers for the rare outdoor or poor surface. It's a personal choice. An acquaintance uses Latin ballroom shoes. Whatever is ok for you - but you don't want a welt.

My wife uses leather soled practice shoes, or dance pumps for lessons. Depends who's leading. Steel toecaps may be recommended with some novices. For the milonga - any of a collection of tango shoes.

By show tango, do you mean ballroom Tango?

Show Tango - Escenario, or Fantasia. What you'll get in a tourist Tango show in BsAs - or some show. Historically Copes & Nieves brought AT out of Argentina and credited with a tango renaissance in the 1970's.

What if ballroom dancer met up with Tango Argentino dancer. Could they dance?

It depends, but yes if there's a lead and a follow. It may not be great, but possible. It all depends on their skill as a dancer, and familiarity with moves and abrazo, etc. And about the culture of the locale. Strict milonga - little chance, but probably more related to culture; informal, alternative event - possible. See also the catastrophe of the Zouk dancer in NYC.

It is an interesting culture. Beginners struggle to get dances, then become good, and then they treat new beginners how they were treated. And the cycle goes on...

Interesting, yes. It all depends where you are and the culture of the locale. It's not homogeneous. Let's also say that there's a spectrum of milongas - from practilonga (very informal milonga) through to select, snooty, milongas setting and observing their codigos and unwelcoming to unknowns - unless you demonstrate some skill and know the appropriate people who will dance with you initially. And then we get to encuentros. They buy in to the culture that suits them.

It helps to have dance partner(s). As others have alluded - social contacts help. It's not always about the myth of selecting a partner from those sat there waiting. Social relationships play a part as well. But that's a complex area of relationships.

 

[Brummbaer]

Is this really so painful to dance with beginners?

Usually, no. I'm grateful to those who helped me - but remember those who didn't.

However my wife was complaining about the whole attitude and rudeness of one specific beginner whilst she was assisting in a lesson.

There's also the standing question of whether 'pros' or maestr@s dance with beginners. The answer is it depends. Injury is a key fear since it's your livelihood. I know one maestra injured by a Nuevo dancer showing off (not up to leading the moves) - and she can dance Nuevo if required. Another - only with certain beginners who are safe.

I noticed a 'guided practica' recently providing a dance with the teacher and post-dance analysis. I think it was an 'extra' on the basic practica (but they are known for a money-grubbing approach).

 

[JournalInTime]

As others have alluded - social contacts help. It's not always about the myth of selecting a partner from those sat there waiting. Social relationships play a part as well. But that's a complex area of relationships.

And unfortunately, this complexity is innate to tango and can't be avoided in the scene as it currently exists.

The dance has built-in social complexity in the codes surrounding it, which date back to its origins, and these codes impose a lot of practical conditions on things like invitations, embrace, floorcraft, and even vocabulary. This sits atop the usual social complexity of dance: who wants to dance with whom, who gets dances because they are young or good-looking, who's a big spender who impresses others and gets special exceptions from studios who want their money, who dances at which spots with what reputations, etc. And thanks to tango having been singled out as the sexy dance for the sparklies, it gets some bonus complexity from apparent or actual sexual dynamics and simply the popularity contest of who's the most sparkly.

Ignoring this is possible, but the results are almost inevitably negative.

 

[Brummbaer]

The dance has built-in social complexity in the codes surrounding it, which date back to its origins, and these codes impose a lot of practical conditions on things like invitations, embrace, floorcraft, and even vocabulary. This sits atop the usual social complexity of dance: who wants to dance with whom, who gets dances because they are young or good-looking, who's a big spender who impresses others and gets special exceptions from studios who want their money, who dances at which spots with what reputations, etc. And thanks to tango having been singled out as the sexy dance for the sparklies, it gets some bonus complexity from apparent or actual sexual dynamics and simply the popularity contest of who's the most sparkly.

I go to a milonga with my wife most times. Sometimes we go alone if one of us is occupied elsewhere. We're not in BsAs (acquaintances tell us they have to go and sit separately to get dances). We sit together, as do other couples mixed in with the solos. We invite, and get invited by others. Sometimes people we 'know'; sometimes strangers. I don't think I've used cabeceo for a few weeks - it's either been impossible or inappropriate.

Sometimes my wife gets few invites - basically depends how many PYTs attend.

Sometimes we're visitors in another country - and have quite a few dances, even with language and cultural differences. Occasionally we've visited one of those 'select' metropolitan milongas. No one acknowledges my cabeceo, and we don't detect any for my wife - but then we can fall back to dancing together (we've paid for our dancefloor space as well). I've even noticed solos, apparently visiting, not getting dances (and not responding to me). Another milonga in the same city, people are welcoming and chat - lots of tandas.

Milongas are not just about dancing - there's a social undertone.

So, get dance partner(s) and form alliances.

 

[JournalInTime]

Milongas are not just about dancing - there's a social undertone.

I'd say that "social dance" is 50% social, 50% dance, and fight anybody who disagreed. I'm mostly there for the dance, but . . . Well, I've learned that if I gun for 0% social, 100% dance, it becomes a big, fat 0% across the board. Which means:

So, get dance partner(s) and form alliances.

I do this. I have a large number of regular dance partners. They sit near me, and I give them priority over all other potential partners at the milonga. Those who use social media are friends with me there, and we chat regularly. When they want to go to an event with a partner to avoid any chance of not dancing, or have a class that requires couples registration and they're not in a couple, I just say "yes." Those closest to me are invited around for drinks in summer.

Yes, these people are real friends. But they became that after becoming dance allies.

And to be clear: My life partner lo these past 7 years is fine with this. She knows I'm not courting mistresses, just tandas. Mixing up your romantic life in tango is a recipe for disaster, whether you're single or coupled. Keep those allies platonic at all costs.