opendoor
Forum Master
I'd call myself an insider, but I despise the masses of dancers struggling through the ronda of a crowded dance floor. In such moments, us aficionados go to the restroom, the bar, or smoke (not me) a cigarette outside the door.
Leaders. How was your Tango journey?
- Thread starter Pharaoh
- Start date
opendoor
Forum Master
Sorry, I haven't known you long enough. But you know that even in this forum there are people who value the hustle and bustle of the ronda over a fulfilling dance experience.
brujo
Well-Known Member
I think I learned about body rolls in my first Afro Cuban/ Orisha classes where the instructor broke down how it helps dancing to the saints with them. This was around 2001.
I think for me tango is different than sensual bachata simply because of the frame, the way sensual is taught here in Oregon it emphasizes the tension created a bit from the frame, so even if you are super close the contact is not as close as the tango close embrace. I’ve noticed this when I go to the bachata dance after tango class and people often note that the contact feels difference or ask me if I dance other stuff because I forget to shift my elbows up. More contact in the hips but less of a heart to heart. The weird thing is that bachata looks a lot more sensual and intimate than tango but for me tango feels a lot more intimate.
So, it’s been 2 years as a leader. Now, I have around 10 moves for vals, milonga, and vals. I don’t dance combos anymore and it is becoming somewhat improvisational based on the music, although with elements that I typically use. I am curious if i should continue drop in to group classes anymore or just focus on my those 10 moves only for each category: tango, vals, milonga. My understanding most leaders have up to 5 move variations in their repertoire and it is a matter of doing them very well with proper musicality and embrace. I already know and dance with a lot of followers.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
I'll be really honest with you: Nobody much counts pieces of vocabulary ("moves"). The longer you dance and study dance, the more you'll realize that it all blurs together.
You can group movements into broad "families": walks (in every direction, and including corridas, lane changes, system changes, crosses, traspiés, etc.), open-step movements (mainly cunitas and alteraciones), ochos (back, forward, contra, loco), foot play (paradas, mordidas, barridas, etc.), static pivots (calesitas and ruedas on one leg, two legs, or changing legs), unweighted leg play (touches, amagues, patadas, boleos, etc.), invasions (entradas, sacadas, empujadas, etc.), entanglements (ganchos, enganches, piernazos, etc.), turns (walking, pivoting, mutual, progressive, cadenas, etc.), colgadas, volcadas, saltos, soltadas, and so on. You'll immediately notice that each family is large, and that each member of that family has variations and is its own family; sacadas alone could fill a book. You'll also immediately notice that you can change the direction, orientation, side, foot, system, size, speed, and/or dynamics of a lot of this stuff . . . what foot is doing your forward sacada, what foot is it targeting, how close is it landing, how deep is it going, how much impulse is it providing, and what step is it driving (not always a turn)?
Eventually, you'll also learn that your families aren't somebody else's ("Noooo! A cadena isn't a turn!"), and that some steps cross families (is a pulpeada an invasion or an entanglement or what?). You'll have endless fun arguing about whether the Americana or doble frente are steps, walking systems, or what. And you'll run into ornaments that some people call steps, like the lapices and enrosques that decorate leader pivots in turns, which can in fact turn into steps if you weight them. I'm not even starting in on all the outliers from show tango, like lifts, drags, and other acrobatics.
And you'll get people combining specific sub-sub-sub-sub elements in specific ways and calling them simply "steps."
How do you count "moves" in that context? You really can't. I've never had a conversation with anybody who did.
My advice is to focus on classes on technique: posture, embrace, muscle engagement (especially the back and legs), quality of movement (especially in weight transfers), changes of dynamics, and so on. If you have that stuff, steps will invent themselves on the floor as a consequence of previous steps, residual energy, body posture (e.g., crossed or wound into a spiral), partner placement, floorspace, and of course music and emotion. Technique drives creativity. You can take it in reverse, learn steps, and then try to perfect technique afterward, but that's a low-percentage game, and it will always limit your dancing. If you really want to take classes on steps, take classes on the walk, which is the basis of it all.
I ditched group classes on steps just shy of 3 years into my tango journey, and have focused on private lessons on technique in the 10 years since, making exceptions mainly when either a friend wants me to take a workshop with her or there's a festival and the guests are people I admire. Interestingly, despite not taking classes on steps, followers comment, "Gee, you know a lot of steps." The secret is that I just do the thing that makes sense at each moment in the music, relying on technique to come through and invent something or other for me. Honestly, if someone were to ask, "What was that step?", I'd just shrug – and if they asked how many steps I know, I'd say, "A continuum."
You can group movements into broad "families": walks (in every direction, and including corridas, lane changes, system changes, crosses, traspiés, etc.), open-step movements (mainly cunitas and alteraciones), ochos (back, forward, contra, loco), foot play (paradas, mordidas, barridas, etc.), static pivots (calesitas and ruedas on one leg, two legs, or changing legs), unweighted leg play (touches, amagues, patadas, boleos, etc.), invasions (entradas, sacadas, empujadas, etc.), entanglements (ganchos, enganches, piernazos, etc.), turns (walking, pivoting, mutual, progressive, cadenas, etc.), colgadas, volcadas, saltos, soltadas, and so on. You'll immediately notice that each family is large, and that each member of that family has variations and is its own family; sacadas alone could fill a book. You'll also immediately notice that you can change the direction, orientation, side, foot, system, size, speed, and/or dynamics of a lot of this stuff . . . what foot is doing your forward sacada, what foot is it targeting, how close is it landing, how deep is it going, how much impulse is it providing, and what step is it driving (not always a turn)?
Eventually, you'll also learn that your families aren't somebody else's ("Noooo! A cadena isn't a turn!"), and that some steps cross families (is a pulpeada an invasion or an entanglement or what?). You'll have endless fun arguing about whether the Americana or doble frente are steps, walking systems, or what. And you'll run into ornaments that some people call steps, like the lapices and enrosques that decorate leader pivots in turns, which can in fact turn into steps if you weight them. I'm not even starting in on all the outliers from show tango, like lifts, drags, and other acrobatics.
And you'll get people combining specific sub-sub-sub-sub elements in specific ways and calling them simply "steps."
How do you count "moves" in that context? You really can't. I've never had a conversation with anybody who did.
My advice is to focus on classes on technique: posture, embrace, muscle engagement (especially the back and legs), quality of movement (especially in weight transfers), changes of dynamics, and so on. If you have that stuff, steps will invent themselves on the floor as a consequence of previous steps, residual energy, body posture (e.g., crossed or wound into a spiral), partner placement, floorspace, and of course music and emotion. Technique drives creativity. You can take it in reverse, learn steps, and then try to perfect technique afterward, but that's a low-percentage game, and it will always limit your dancing. If you really want to take classes on steps, take classes on the walk, which is the basis of it all.
I ditched group classes on steps just shy of 3 years into my tango journey, and have focused on private lessons on technique in the 10 years since, making exceptions mainly when either a friend wants me to take a workshop with her or there's a festival and the guests are people I admire. Interestingly, despite not taking classes on steps, followers comment, "Gee, you know a lot of steps." The secret is that I just do the thing that makes sense at each moment in the music, relying on technique to come through and invent something or other for me. Honestly, if someone were to ask, "What was that step?", I'd just shrug – and if they asked how many steps I know, I'd say, "A continuum."
JournalInTime
Forum Master
Thanks for reading the wall o' text.
I am taking private lessons. I started those one session into my first year of tango, 12.5 years ago – alongside group classes – and I have continued them ever since. They're all I've done for the past 10 years, with rare exceptions. I've mostly worked weekly with my coach, but there was a period at the start when I was working with two or even three teachers in a week, and as of this past summer, I've started attending a private salon with my coach and another teacher, as well as continuing my work with my coach.
What we work on the most is general dance technique. Not "leader's technique" or "follower's technique," but "dancer's technique": How to control your body so you can walk gracefully, pivot with stability, use the right muscles, etc. The context is tango, but 75% of it would apply to any dance. While I dance close to exclusively as a leader, I follow to get the feeling of movements and, when my partner and I work together with our coach, we both get the same advice ("Yes, you're using this right now to lead X. But she'll be using it later to follow Y. So, both of you do it.").
As for beginner fundamentals: In my first few years, I ended up working part-time at the studio in the role of barman and he-who-sweeps-floors. Because I was always there, I accompanied less advanced students in the beginner classes for something like 16 sessions (three years, four sessions per year, some offered twice a week). It helped a lot to keep repeating that. At this stage, I don't think it would help me as much as a dancer, although it might help me become a teacher. I can't say when it stopped being useful to me as a dancer . . . probably after 2 years.
Specific leader's technique? Not really. Dance technique? Yes. Check your private messages.
opendoor
Forum Master
You can safely stop now or go back to classes in three years. 10 moves is sufficient. I, too, only dance 10 moves, even though I could definitely do 100 at one point. However, learning and improving your technique will never stop. You now especially need feedback from a master on your posture, embrace, movement quality, and dynamics. Now your time for privates has come!
opendoor
Forum Master
It's possible that the dance teacher in Pharaoh's part of the world calls it that way. I also remember the time when "dance technique" was synonymous only with "follower's technique". Times have changed.
Personally, I've never counted. You can have a pleasant tanda with much less - depending on the music. Sometimes even walking is enough. But occasionally you want to pull out a 'showstopper' (but only with an appropriate dance partner at the right moment).
It depends on your classes, any syllabus, your teacher, what you get out of them, and what you put into them.
You certainly need a teacher, or several. And you need the social connections for dance partners (depending on your objectives). We've also had private lessons somewhere from pretty much when we started. 'Several' teachers hasn't ever been an issue. Perhaps initially we learnt a particular step with one, but we're now in a position to appreciate different viewpoints of the same thing. It can be helpful!
'Technique' becomes more significant - and related to being familiar with the music and orchestras. Exactly where do you put your feet/leg? Where do you stop your partner? Which direction? How much weight transfer? Is that abrazo helpful? Do I have 'intention'? Does my follower just know what I'm going to do, or am I leading it? Am I responding to my follower? Am I appropriately 'grounded'? What about this entry/exit? And, of course, that step/timing looks interesting! How do I lead it? How do I do it safely? Do I even want to do that element? (Yes, we've rejected some as teachers for us because of their style, teaching approach, and repertoire.) You also reach a level where you can develop ideas yourself.
We've been dancing AT for around 10 years (but other dances in other environments for many years before that). We kept group lessons until a few years ago - mainly to give something back to others, but it also (slowly) helped. Even if you think you know something, it can help to go back to the beginning. Call it consolidation. We've taken, and still take, several more intensive weeks, and weekends, with teachers who we'd regard more as coaches. We take the occasional 'master' workshop if someone notable is doing something of interest and it's worthwhile travelling. We take occasional (sometimes lengthy; sometimes just a 'fix') private lessons with maestros we know and trust to work on particular aspects. It's not about being told you're doing it well, but how it could be improved. It needs someone to observe and react. Occasionally we've had group lessons where that has also happened, but you're paying for the attention to detail in a private lesson.
A dance partner, or several, with similar dance interests, and who will give feedback, is also useful. Especially for workshops. I'm fortunate to wake up with mine, but there are other followers with whom I practice and discuss (ditto my wife with other leaders).
It's up to you when you feel you've reached 'good enough', but keep some corrective, improving, input! There are also social advantages to being 'known' elsewhere.
Depends on the move! Depends if you have a mirror for practice (or video - can also provide a 'mirror' without recording). And the floor.
Enrosques? There's probably a whole load of YT videos on pivoting, 360° turns, balance, pivot and lapiz, etc. Or maybe some dedicated 'library' from some teachers.
Ochos? Yeah, leaders do them as well! Practice, like followers, at the kitchen sink or brushing your teeth.
You can also practice moves with a mop/brush - or 2. Even useful keeping it horizontal and pivoting (if you have space).
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First you should try and answer these questions:
What is your goal?
What do you enjoy about the dance?
What do you feel your strengths and weaknesses are as a dancer?
Also a better assessment of where you are! Not suggesting that the 'world', through this forum, should assess where you are! It's unclear what your 10 moves are. There are 8 in the 8CB, so could just add, maybe, rock step to ocho cortado! It's part of the problem with a dance where there are no intermediate levels.
But assess where you want to get to, and, importantly, stepping stones along the way. Cadenas in vals? Milonga traspie? Contra steps? Calesitas in tango and vals? Boleos? Volcadas? Colgadas? Lapiz? Corte steps?
Not that you necessarily need those! As @Rabbit suggested above, assess your strengths and weaknesses as a dancer, and work on fixing 'weaknesses' (which usually translates to 'technique' first rather than vocabulary)
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Keep it simple. Perfect your abrazo. Learn to dance with the music. Don't count the number of steps you have learned, will learn, or need to learn. You can ignore most of them and still develop enough to interpret almost all Golden Age tangos. Work on the basics: balance, posture, energy of movement, clarity of your lead, comfort, naturalness. Just watch the old milongueros. Unless, of course, you're planning to be a performer, in which case, enroll in a modern dance or ballet class as well. I've heard this focus on steps, steps, steps, as tango's encyclopedia problem. You have to learn them all from A to Z.