Learning Leading from Patterns/Sequences

[Angel HI]

This has been my experience. I have found greater satisfaction in my own dancing as I have reduced the number of "steps" that I do. The more I focus my attention on the quality of movement, the more I enjoy dancing. I think most of my partners would agree.

As a teacher, I am fully aware of how most leaders desire to learn sequences. I am also convinced that this is counter-productive to learning tango. Learning sequences gives the illusion of learning tango. I don't think it gives the reality.

And it's also a pity how many men mistake simple for boring. Simple is great...but it can be creative and varied and expressive. Which most men seem to miss,....

:notworth: to both.

As to patterns specifically, let us suffice it to say that 2 steps could be referred to as a pattern if danced enough. Almost everything that we do could be called patterns/sequences simply because as Peaches mentioned many persons tend to dance obviously what they know to most songs just because, and after a while, certain movements/sequences become patterns by definition.

I believe that we all might agree that one should learn a movement by its natural element and float, and not by a rote/didactic set of footprints and rules. Non?

 

[AndaBien]

Yes, every leader has patterns, but they are not predefined. They can change, and often do, depending on necessity, creativity, inspiration.

 

[chanchan]

Furthermore, once...just once, I'd love to see someone really define what they mean by simple steps. OK, volcadas, colgadas...I'll grant that they could be excluded as being "not simple." (Never mind the fact that they are, in their own way.)

For me, "simple" means "composed by few basic elements", which doesn't always mean boring and it doesn't always mean easy.
According to my definition, the colgada and colgadas (if you don't mean specific sequences, but only the concept of being out of axis) are simple.
Anyway, the simplest step is the walk.
The 8CB, on the contrary, is, according to me, one of the more complex sequences in tango: 8 different steps, each one different from the other.
Moreover, very few of those steps can be considered "basic" or "necessary" in any way.

One of the advantges of a simples steps is that they give you more space for nuances, but they also allow you to follow the music more easily, especially when the music is difficult.

Simplicity is often connected with flexibility and possibility to adapt to any situation: a good walk can be inserted in any kind of music, and (if done with the right musicality and connection) is not boring at all. A sandwich can often become boring or out of place if you don't pay attention to when and where you do it.

But pretty much everything comes down to simple principles. Step in one of a limited number of directions, shift weight to a given degree, pivots. Simple...and yet encompasses pretty much everything. So...what is simple, and what isn't?

When you put togheter many simple things at the same time, you obtain a complex thing.

 

[Gssh]

I don't know whether it's just a matter of language usage and what we understand by a 'pattern', but I find that whole schedule to be entirely pattern-based.

Hmm, i have not read that book - and i think i might have a different concept of what a "pattern" is. For me the important feature of something not being pattern based is e.g. "When we start walking forward we usually do at least one small weightshift just to make it easier to feel for the leader to feel the followers axis, but we can start walking with either the right leg, or the left leg, both options are equally valid", as opposed to "the first step forward in a sequence is always with the right foot".

What do you consider a pattern?

My definition would be roughly "A pre-organized/choreographed series of movements that could be de-constructed into more atomic movements, and where one could apply the movements in a different order/in a different context". Essentially everything that requires more than 1 beat. Now there are some more complicated patterns that require a bit of a set-up, like e.g. back sacadas, and a few of these set-ups are much easier, but i feel that to really be able to claim that one has mastered this one should be able to get there from anywhere.

Gssh

 

[Subliminal]

A 8 week course could look something like this

...

I don't disagree that this is a valid approach...

...but... this is just the first 8 weeks. I don't know a single leader that after 8 weeks felt comfortable enough to derive all of tango, let alone felt like they were ready for a milonga. What do you do after this course? Repeat it until it sticks?

 

[Dave Bailey]

Patterns, hmmm.

Well, the obvious reason why a lot of teachers teach patterns is commercial. Lots of students - especially beginner students - often like patterns; if they learn a sequence it gives them the impression that they know how to dance.

So you can get more business by teaching sequences than by teaching technique.

 

[Dave Bailey]

As for this:

So, how does one get the most out of a pattern? I propose the following method.

Step 1: Learn the follower's positioning and footwork first. The leader should attempt to see where the follower is going, how she is moving, and where her balance is during the entirety of the pattern. If possible, the leader should ask someone who knows the pattern to lead them through it.

Step 2: Identify the base steps used in the pattern. Focus on the technique for each base step throughout the pattern.

Step 3: Do the pattern on the opposite side of the embrace. Reverse it. Invert it. Do it backwards. How many possibilities are there? Try them all.

Step 4: Try different timings for the pattern. The teacher asked you to do the Giro and Sacadas with a quick, quick, slow rhythm. Why? Can you lead it as slow, slow, slow? Can you lead it on a 1,3,1 of a Vals? Did the pattern include a cross? Can you lead the cross in a quick (quarter note)? Sure everyone does that. But can you make the cross last an entire measure? Hmmm...

Step 5: Identify which parts are optional adornments for the leader. File them away for later if you are having trouble.

Step 6: If you learned the pattern in a class, go to a practica and ask a follower who didn't attend the class to dance with you. Perform the pattern and don't tell her what it is. If you can do it forwards, backwards, upside down, etc with no problem, then you've got it down. If you can't lead it, go back to Step 1. If you don't know how to lead each movement, there's no point to the pattern.

I would add:
Step 0: Learn (teach) the underlying technique first, using an exercise; the patten taught is then one that employs that specific technique to demonstrate how it can be used and useful. This means that students think of the pattern as an example of a technique, rather than as a specific entity by itself.

 

[Subliminal]

I think we have to make one thing clear. There is a lot of talk on this forum about how tango SHOULD be taught. This is helpful I'm sure for teachers, and for students trying to find the qualities of a good teacher. But that kind of discussion doesn't really help students who are stuck in a smaller community and have to make due with what they have.

A lot of teachers use patterns, for money, or simply because that was the way they were taught. The truth is, because of the size of the community, or due to financial reasons, some leaders may not have any other options but to learn from these teachers as best they can.

There is one other point I wanted to reiterate. A lot of discussion goes on about how to teach beginners, and what makes an advanced leader. But what about intermediate leaders? Sometimes I feel like they are the Underpants Gnomes of the tango world. Instead of:

Step 1: Steal underpants.
Step 2: ??????????
Step 3: Profit!

It's:

Step 1: Learn the basics of improvisational Argentine Tango.
Step 2: ?????????????
Step 3: Dance like a milonguero.

It's that big ???? In between there that often gets filled with "Learn as many sequences as possible" because there aren't any alternatives.

 

[UKDancer]

It's that big ???? In between there that often gets filled with "Learn as many sequences as possible" because there aren't any alternatives.

Well, yes: I was wondering what comes in week nine, because I'm 'stuck' developmentally. I know basic principles. I'm out of my depth at milongas. But there's nothing in between. Well, not nothing, but you know ...

 

[JohnEm]

There is one other point I wanted to reiterate. A lot of discussion goes on about how to teach beginners, and what makes an advanced leader. But what about intermediate leaders? Sometimes I feel like they are the Underpants Gnomes of the tango world. Instead of:

Step 1: Steal underpants.
Step 2: ??????????
Step 3: Profit!

It's:

Step 1: Learn the basics of improvisational Argentine Tango.
Step 2: ?????????????
Step 3: Dance like a milonguero.

It's that big ???? In between there that often gets filled with "Learn as many sequences as possible" because there aren't any alternatives.

Of course there's an alternative:

Step 2 should be practise, experiment, practise, experiment, practise and
even more practise. No-one else can make anyone dance like a milonguero,
nor for that matter any other style, only the individual can.

 

[Subliminal]

Of course there's an alternative:

Step 2 should be practise, experiment, practise, experiment, practise and
even more practise. No-one else can make anyone dance like a milonguero,
nor for that matter any other style, only the individual can.

So does every leader have to reinvent the entire dance of Argentine Tango? Eventually, yes, over a lifetime of dancing a leader will recreate everything they've learned with their own style. But isn't that a lot to ask of a beginner-going-on-intermediate?

 

[JohnEm]

So does every leader have to reinvent the entire dance of Argentine Tango? Eventually, yes, over a lifetime of dancing a leader will recreate everything they've learned with their own style. But isn't that a lot to ask of a beginner-going-on-intermediate?

Well there seems to me to be one thing that is for certain:
that nothing in tango is for certain. And it is not prescriptive.

Bear in mind the comment was about milonguero. And that the basics
have been learnt. I repeated basic lessons and also the next stage twice
and having stopped lessons it took a year of milongas and practise with
partners in limited space in homes before everything I remembered
could be used with any degree of fluency. Until then it looked rather better
than it felt to me, and maybe to my partners also.


Milonguero is limited only by what can be achieved within the (in line) embrace.
You have to find your own practical limits, and those of your partner.
The effort is well worth it, and it's the closest way I could find to how
the milongueros used to learn it themselves. A large element of
self-learning seems to have been involved. And we have YouTube,
worth it's non-existent weight in Gold if utilised discerningly,
plus other web resources.

 

[dchester]

I don't know a single leader that after 8 weeks felt comfortable enough to derive all of tango, let alone felt like they were ready for a milonga.

I'm not sure what you mean by "all of tango", but if it means knowing everything about tango, I doubt 8 years would be enough time, much less 8 weeks.

let alone felt like they were ready for a milonga.

I think if they can do walking, rock steps, the cross, ochos, & giros (molinette), they are ready for a milonga. In fact, one could make an argument that that for a leader, walking and rock steps might be enough.

What do you do after this course? Repeat it until it sticks?

Not a bad idea. Also if possible, take a similar course from a different teacher. Practicas are invaluable, or if not available, then a practice partner (or both). If you can afford it, private lessons.

Generally speaking though, people will start taking group courses on some of the "named steps" such as, boleos, sacadas, ganchos, etc. They'll see someone doing something that interests them, take some classes on it, and try to do them without hurting themselves or anyone else. If they are lucky, someone might give them helpful advice and mentoring, or maybe people will conclude they are bad (and that's generally true for any newbie), and try to avoid them. If the person sticks with it though, they eventually muddle through all the conflicting advice, figure a few things out, and start to progress.


Either that or they quit and complain that it should be taught like ballroom.

 

[AndaBien]

So does every leader have to reinvent the entire dance of Argentine Tango? Eventually, yes, over a lifetime of dancing a leader will recreate everything they've learned with their own style. But isn't that a lot to ask of a beginner-going-on-intermediate?

Every milonguero is different: none of them have been reinvented. They all invented themselves.

Is it a lot to ask? I don't think so. There is no easy road to mastery. If there was, everyone would become a master. No one can be "taught" to be a artist; just a craftsman. To become a artisit requires that each person do their own learning. And, it generally takes quite a while. And, they usually do it by focusing more on the basics.

 

[Gssh]

Well, yes: I was wondering what comes in week nine, because I'm 'stuck' developmentally. I know basic principles. I'm out of my depth at milongas. But there's nothing in between. Well, not nothing, but you know ...

I agree with dchester that after there comes repeating this maybe once or twice, and then themes workshops of 2/3 sessions introducing: wraps in all their forms (ganchos, enganches, inside, outside, right to right left, left to right leg, and so on), saccadas and off axis work, milonga, vals, specific orchestras, variations on ochos, variations on giros and so on, chained into more or less or coherent series, depending what the students seem to be enthusiastic about.

And i have to admit that i also am not sure what a intermediate dancer should do, besides going to milongas and continuing to do classes/workshops that interest them.

My personal approach has over time become that after knowing the basic vocabulary the key is to go dancing at milongas. I think it is really just miles on the dancefloor, and trying hard to be honest with myself and taking every tanda seriously. For me it became an exercise in cutting everything i could not dance at a milonga out of my vocabulary, and waitng for the experience when one of the fancy moves that i had seen and worked on in class and at workshops suddenly appeared effortlessly out of seemingly nowhere. I often have to fight the temptation to tell beginners who ask about specific patterns that it is to early, and that it will all make sense later. I often feel that people trying to emulate a specific expression of underlying technique without being comfortable with what the technique actually is activly hinder their understanding of the technique. My favourite example for that is ganchos - to do a gancho one should have perfected the exact placement of the followers steps, continuous connection through turns by dissocation, and non-inertia and complete relaxed hips and legs of the follower. I.e. once ochos and giros are completely understood, ganchos easy. If they are viewed as something fundamentally separate it makes it harder to find the flow between movements.


So, i think after the basics comes the milonga. Studying the connection and geometry of the things i think i know till they work under pressure, from any angle, and so on. And this can only be done by repeating them 10.000 times, with different partners, on different floors, with crowds of people in the way, using them to tell different interpretation of different pieces of music to followers who have different interpretations of the music themselves.

Gssh