Lilly_of_the_valley
Well-Known Member
The wast majority of stage performers would not know how. Dancing tango socially in a milonga is a completely different skill.
Lessons in Buenos Aires
- Thread starter jerblu
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I heard once that Miguel Zotto and Milena Plebbs would go sometimes to the milonga, maybe for pleasure also, but to hone their leading and following skills, which could become dull by always doing choreographies.
jantango
Well-Known Member
When a couple works only on preparing choreographies, they are working more on memorizing and synchronizing the steps for performance. There doesn't have to be much lead and follow. There is nothing unpredictable, especially when it's a choreography they have done hundreds of times on stage.
Stage performers occasionally show up at certain milongas to socialize with other performers and be seen by the foreigners. They don't go to dance socially with strangers. As Lilly of the Valley pointed out above, dancing for stage and the milonga are two different skills. Milongueros are the experts at improvising on the dance floor of the milonga.
Performing couples dance only with each other, on stage or in a milonga. After years together they can't improvise nor want to do so with strangers. They are paid to dance, whether it is an exhibition at a milonga, a performance on stage, or a teaching a class. They no longer dance for the love of tango; it is business for them.
Stage performers occasionally show up at certain milongas to socialize with other performers and be seen by the foreigners. They don't go to dance socially with strangers. As Lilly of the Valley pointed out above, dancing for stage and the milonga are two different skills. Milongueros are the experts at improvising on the dance floor of the milonga.
Performing couples dance only with each other, on stage or in a milonga. After years together they can't improvise nor want to do so with strangers. They are paid to dance, whether it is an exhibition at a milonga, a performance on stage, or a teaching a class. They no longer dance for the love of tango; it is business for them.
Lui
Active Member
High level choreography classes seem to by invitation/recommendation only. Which makes sense since nobody reaches a high level instantly without getting in touch with quite a few like minded. Usually, stage dancers are trained with a current project in mind. Mr.Godoy’s fees seem to underline what kind of precious woman she is. Students who can cope with mere mortals might find an as effective training (or better) at a more affordable price.
While I disagree with most of Jan’s stage tango myths (Ok, stage dancers often seem to be lost at a Milonga ), I second her in her praise of the Milongueros. Steps you can learn everywhere. That special mindset and historical background can only experienced and understood in Buenos Aires.
One week is not really much time for great discoveries or to learn anything in deep. Nevertheless it might be a good idea to visit the practicas that most Milongas offer. They are very affordable, and an excellent opportunity to meet local Argentineaen students. Those often speak a little bit English, know a lot of “insider” tips and are your first potential dance partners, when your are totally unknown at that Milonga.
If you could specify which aspect of Tango intrigues you the most, it might be easier to give a good recommendation.
While I disagree with most of Jan’s stage tango myths (Ok, stage dancers often seem to be lost at a Milonga ), I second her in her praise of the Milongueros. Steps you can learn everywhere. That special mindset and historical background can only experienced and understood in Buenos Aires.
One week is not really much time for great discoveries or to learn anything in deep. Nevertheless it might be a good idea to visit the practicas that most Milongas offer. They are very affordable, and an excellent opportunity to meet local Argentineaen students. Those often speak a little bit English, know a lot of “insider” tips and are your first potential dance partners, when your are totally unknown at that Milonga.
If you could specify which aspect of Tango intrigues you the most, it might be easier to give a good recommendation.
I see what you mean. It just seems a bit sad that they don't have that love of tango. Maybe it just expresses itself in another way.
Also, they must have to work at making stage tango look like it's being led and followed, which it does at least some of the time. Ironic to create the illusion without the substance.
Lui
Active Member
Excellent stage Tango is lead to the tiniest bit, otherwise there would be no harmony and easiness. During 100 performances something unexpected is bound to happen. Slipping on some drops of sweat, ripping a zipper, breaking a heel or a sick partner will happen to any dancer given enough time. Hence, sooner or later there will be improvisation on stage. That this incident remains unnoticed is the mark of a professional couple. Unfortunately, not all shows feature excellent “Tango” dancing. When ballet dancers are “speed morphed” into tango characters, lots of the lead, harmony and beauty are lost in that transformation. To me their choreographys look like an endless chain of poses without any real dancing. Nevertheless I would blame this rather on the producers than on the dancers. Those have to do as they are told.
After three, five or more hours of training and one or two performances a night the urge to party away at a Milonga is usually quenched. Further, if one spends his day playing big to fill the stage it is hard to just throw over your mental switch and dance small at night.Therefore, while involved into a production some stage dancers seem to be a little lost at a Milonga. On the other hand there will be only very few Milongueros who can fill a 20 or more meter stage on the spot.
I don’t have any knowledge about the bank accounts of the top names in the business. Of the professionals dancers, I do know, nobody has gathered any fantastic fortune. However they all have paid with the usually “wear and tear” of their bodies. For those who do their own creative work this is a way, to express their ideas, feelings and stories. A way to play with and for the audience. That is why I gave up my high paid work as an engineer and started my adventures in full time Tango. To deny me or any commercial dancers a possible love of tango harboured in our hearts is just a refection of the arrogance by those who never dared to do the last step - connecting their existence to the dance. ... on the other hand it might just be envy.
After three, five or more hours of training and one or two performances a night the urge to party away at a Milonga is usually quenched. Further, if one spends his day playing big to fill the stage it is hard to just throw over your mental switch and dance small at night.Therefore, while involved into a production some stage dancers seem to be a little lost at a Milonga. On the other hand there will be only very few Milongueros who can fill a 20 or more meter stage on the spot.
I don’t have any knowledge about the bank accounts of the top names in the business. Of the professionals dancers, I do know, nobody has gathered any fantastic fortune. However they all have paid with the usually “wear and tear” of their bodies. For those who do their own creative work this is a way, to express their ideas, feelings and stories. A way to play with and for the audience. That is why I gave up my high paid work as an engineer and started my adventures in full time Tango. To deny me or any commercial dancers a possible love of tango harboured in our hearts is just a refection of the arrogance by those who never dared to do the last step - connecting their existence to the dance. ... on the other hand it might just be envy.
?? Any professional dancer I have known, of any genre, was in the "business" because of their love of the dance, and of performing the dance. It is typically the reason dancers enter and stay in a career that is difficult, short, and not well compensated. But they are lucky in that they have been able to make a passion into a career.
Mario7
Member
I guess this depends on what you mean by 'lead'???
I've certainly seen stage tango performances where nothing was lead and yet their rehearsed correography gave them a look of ease and harmony.
Do I have to post some of these performances or could you save me the trouble and explain what you mean by 'lead'?? ..can you be possibly saying that rehearsed, staged tango dancing is lead to the tiniest bit? Why rehearse then? Why is the performance very similar each time? ..I just don't get it.
I've seen these performances, too....lots of them...here again some may have been 'lead' but there may be a whole world of 'leading' out there that I'm not privvy to..... ie: Nuevo 'leading'.
Ampster
Active Member
I agree completely, and suggest that you define what you mean by "leading", and how it's different in stage tango.
Lui
Active Member
Great list Ampster! When in Buenos Aires, I liked to look into the Tangauta, a little magazine publishing Milongas, Practicas, teacher's offers and tango news. Some of their articles are even translated into English. Seems there is a downloadable version nowadays. http://www.eltangauta.com/ .
I was too lazy to register, therefore try on your own risk!
I have never seen an unlead tango looking in harmony or ease - on or off stage. I would say, all styles based on classic tango use the same idea of leading. However, they differ in the amount of momentum/energy transmitted and timing. The couple establishes a frame between their torsos (e.g. close embrace) and the leader exerts a certain scheme of impulse and momentum through that frame, so that it feels natural and desirable for the follower to do the desired step at that specific moment in exact that size. It could be said that the follower's body is moved through the embrace by the leader.
In stage tango, if you like to place some kicks or ganchos into a molinette you can’t look down and aim (except in a parody maybe).Therefore, it is a good idea to lead her foot exactly to the place you like and kick into the space you know she isn’t … now you only have to do it at the right time of the music. The key to synchrony is to lead her along the flow of the music and position yourself according. It simply is the easiest and most reliable way to achieve that effect.
The reason to rehearse is the same as with any play. A lot of different people have to cooperate to tell the audience an exciting story. Very simplified: The dancers need to know how to go on and off, how to portray their stage characters (a villain will dance different than a young lover), and how to respect their alignment on the stage. The musicians need to know their cue and how to set the mood. The light guy needs to know where the dancers are moving and how the music will develop. The stagehands … well you get the picture. Of course each performance is very similar, as today's visitor is entitled to the same quality of performance as yesterday's.(Hopefully yesterday's was great
) If you order a Schnitzel in a restaurant you don’t want it to taste like fish sticks one day and like hamburger the other. You want it to taste like Schnitzel each and every time.
I was too lazy to register, therefore try on your own risk!
I have never seen an unlead tango looking in harmony or ease - on or off stage. I would say, all styles based on classic tango use the same idea of leading. However, they differ in the amount of momentum/energy transmitted and timing. The couple establishes a frame between their torsos (e.g. close embrace) and the leader exerts a certain scheme of impulse and momentum through that frame, so that it feels natural and desirable for the follower to do the desired step at that specific moment in exact that size. It could be said that the follower's body is moved through the embrace by the leader.
In stage tango, if you like to place some kicks or ganchos into a molinette you can’t look down and aim (except in a parody maybe).Therefore, it is a good idea to lead her foot exactly to the place you like and kick into the space you know she isn’t … now you only have to do it at the right time of the music. The key to synchrony is to lead her along the flow of the music and position yourself according. It simply is the easiest and most reliable way to achieve that effect.
The reason to rehearse is the same as with any play. A lot of different people have to cooperate to tell the audience an exciting story. Very simplified: The dancers need to know how to go on and off, how to portray their stage characters (a villain will dance different than a young lover), and how to respect their alignment on the stage. The musicians need to know their cue and how to set the mood. The light guy needs to know where the dancers are moving and how the music will develop. The stagehands … well you get the picture. Of course each performance is very similar, as today's visitor is entitled to the same quality of performance as yesterday's.(Hopefully yesterday's was great
) If you order a Schnitzel in a restaurant you don’t want it to taste like fish sticks one day and like hamburger the other. You want it to taste like Schnitzel each and every time.