Level restrictions at competitions (especially college comps)

Anna

New Member
To move some questions over from the Yale thread:

Should level restrictions be based on time limits?
Should there be restrictions on how many levels a competitor's entries can span?
Should restrictions be based purely on a point system?

Also:
What happens to couples who are forced to move up before they are ready?
What rules least encourage dancing down?

And:
How do people move up through the levels?
 
To answer the question you asked in the other thread about getting beginners to stick to pre-bronze material (and presumably to really learn it), I would say the biggest thing that helps is having competitions with a strong enough competitive tradition that doing so is a near requirement for winning.

I haven't seen it in a year or two, but it tended to be true that the Harvard Beginner competition and the like strongly punished "creativity" especially in the smooth/standard dances. Generally, everyone who tried to do anything but very basic steps was eliminated in the first few rounds, because they simply could not match the form and cleanliness of the well done basics. Also eliminated of course were the dancers whose teams did not have anyone who could teach them how to do the basics at demonstration quality. By the final, you might see one couple that somehow survived still doing the occasionaly promenade or underarm turn - with the other five doing nothing but near perfect basics.

If you classes are material based, and the competitions you attend small enough that they can be one with poor mastery, then the new recruits will probably be quite slow to develop and interest in perfectinng their mastery. On the other hand, if you provide some technically strong classes to complement more fun/material ones, and go to competitions where a high level of mastery is required to make it to beginner finals, then they start to see what the requirement is and how to gain the skills needed to achieve it.

For example, one critical mistake that some teams make is to not take the beginner program seriously - if the beginners are not exposed to the team's technique guru from the start, then they will focus initially on the material side and only add technical foundation later. But if they do start with the technical guru from the first weeks of the program, the result is very different. Another complicating factor is that on some teams the technical guru is the professional coach and team members provide the fun choreography to balance that, while on others team alumni are the technical foundation while the professional coach provides more choreography-centered instruction - it doesn't really matter which is which, only that the beginners get exposed to the technical tradition early.

To jump to shaky conclusions, when the beginner program is technically strong recruits spend a year gaining foundation and then accelerate rapidly through the remainder of the syllabus levels, hitting "collegiate open" in strong cases during their third or even second year. These teams tends to dominate the beginner level and may well then be thinly spread above that, but include a number of open couples of varying strength. In contrast, when the beginner program is weak technical interest tends to develop in the second or third year and these teams may well dominate the intermediate to advanced syllabus levels. But their dancers are then extremely slow to move into the open division - in essense developing more along the lines of the adult USABDA level progression than the collegiate one. If you consider Boston schools to stereotypically be in the first category, their 2nd year dancers typically can't find a good level to enter at USABDA regionals or MAC in NYC where there is no time restriction. Wheras a NYC school of the second sort will have 2nd/3rd year "bronze" dancers who feel they have no appropriate level to enter at a Boston collegiate competition where bronze has a time limit.
 
Yeah, we definitely need to work on our beginner program, especially now that we're large enough to have a real one at all. I'd really like to work on giving the beginners a strong foundation in a group setting.

Your analysis of different types of teams is interesting and it seems to more or less fit the pattern of what I've seen. We're basically of your second type. Our newcomers don't make many finals and couples tend to move themselves up to silver after making bronze finals, without actually pointing out of bronze. But for the couples who joined prior to this year, technical interest developed quickly (at least after we changed coaches) and they spend 1-2 semesters per syllabus level, fairly consistently going from the final in one level to the final of the next. We do benefit a lot from people taking private lessons and taking lessons independently over the summer, etc. to build up technical knowledge. (This is all based on pretty limited data and I don't know how it will work with all the newcomers who joined this year.)

Anyways I think a time limit in newcomers definitely makes sense. By kicking people up to the next level, it gets people to focus on their dancing (or to decide that they would rather not compete). And newcomer events would be even more immense without a time limit! But I think it makes sense to let people stay in bronze until they point out, without a time limit, unless there are immense bronze events and tiny silver events as someone in the Yale thread mentioned has happened.

By the way, are there any thoughts on having a copper division between newcomers and bronze, which one competition (Holy Cross? Hartwick?) had last year?
 
By the way, are there any thoughts on having a copper division between newcomers and bronze, which one competition (Holy Cross? Hartwick?) had last year?

Hartwick.

Hartwick Website said:
Copper* – For those dancers who are no longer eligible for newcomer (timed out) but have not accumulated any points.

However, as this was their comp's first year, Copper had only 10-15 couples (Compared to 10 Newcomer and 20 Bronze), so it's difficult to say what a Copper level would do in a large-scale comp. I think there was a fair bit of discussion on this last year, so a little bit of searching could add some good input to this discussion.
 
I know this and the previous thread have been focused on college comps mainly, but I want to know what people think of this idea for adult comps: Should a couple that enters open at a given level be prohibited from entering closed at a lower level in the same comp?
 
Should a couple that enters open at a given level be prohibited from entering closed at a lower level in the same comp?
USA Dance rules say that the lowest open level, "Novice," is considered to be equivalent in level to Syllabus. In fact, USA Dance rules say that a couple can dance two levels, and if at least one of those levels is a Syllabus level then they may also dance Novice. That means that under the rules couples can enter any of the following combinations of levels:

Bronze - Silver - Novice
Silver - Gold - Novice
Gold - Novice - PreChamp
Novice - PreChamp
PreChamp - Champ
 
Bronze - Silver - Novice
Silver - Gold - Novice
Gold - Novice - PreChamp
Novice - PreChamp
PreChamp - Champ

Let me see if I follow this... and please bear with me because I have no experience with USA Dance rules. As I understand it, the "dance levels" are as follows:

1. Alll of the syllabus levels plus Novice
2. PreChamp
3. Championship

So I could enter any syllabus level and also enter PreChamp, and then thirdly be allowed to enter Novice too. If all of the syllabus categories are considered equivalent for this purpose, could I enter Bronze-PreChamp (and also dance Novice)? I don't know why I would want to do such a thing, but it looks like I could.
 
Let me see if I follow this... and please bear with me because I have no experience with USA Dance rules. As I understand it, the "dance levels" are as follows:

1. Alll of the syllabus levels plus Novice
2. PreChamp
3. Championship

So I could enter any syllabus level and also enter PreChamp, and then thirdly be allowed to enter Novice too. If all of the syllabus categories are considered equivalent for this purpose, could I enter Bronze-PreChamp (and also dance Novice)? I don't know why I would want to do such a thing, but it looks like I could.

No, your choices are as Laura listed them.
 
You can only dance 2 syllabus levels plus novice, so no you cannot dance all the syllabus levels. It is not unusual to see someone dance silver, skip gold and then novice. Some couples will dance silver material in novice while for others it is a nice opportunity to begin to dance open material without eneterng into pre-champ, which you might not be quite ready for yet.

My expereince with USABDA comps has been that the organizers do follow the 2 level rule good (at the syllabus level) and the couples pretty well self regulate themselves and move to the next category when approporaite.
 
It's not "skipping" Gold. Novice and Syllabus are considered to be parallel tracks, so Novice is the opposite track equivalent of any Syllabus level.

However, it is true that many (if not most) competitors consider Novice to be "baby Prechamp."
 
Should level restrictions be based on time limits?
No, except for Newcomer. Once you've been dancing 6 months or so you're no longer a newcomer. A points system will be more or less self-regulating about forcing couples upward based on skill level, assuming honesty.
Should there be restrictions on how many levels a competitor's entries can span?
Yes. If multiple levels are premitted, it should be two only: the minimum for which one is eligible, plus one level higher. Or both higher than one's minimum eligible.
Should restrictions be based purely on a point system?
Yes. See above.
What happens to couples who are forced to move up before they are ready?
Newcomers aside, no couple is forced to move up until they're proved their mettle against their peers in their level.
What rules least encourage dancing down?
Strict enforcement of points.
How do people move up through the levels?
Uh, gaining sufficient points?
 
I might be the only one but I would really like to see this in pro/am (except the only dancing two levels part, when there are like 5 levels of silver and 5 of bronze...)
 
Uh, gaining sufficient points?

Sorry, that was a poorly phrased question I added to try to cover what Chris and I were talking about at the beginning of the thread (which otherwise didn't really address any of the other questions). So what I really meant was how do you teach team beginners so they can effectively move up to bronze and so forth? (which I guess doesn't exactly belong in this thread but anyways).
 
To move some questions over from the Yale thread:
Should level restrictions be based on time limits?
In my opinion, Newcomer needs time protection (typically first semester, aka first 3 months of dancing). "Beginners" can benefit from a protected environment, so second sememster often deserves time protection as well.

However Fall competitions, I think, could have having Bronze be an unprotected level instead of the 3 semester limit they have. Likewise, either semester could benefit from exploring Hartwick's copper level idea -- make "copper" the time protected level (2/3 semster total limit) while brozne is unprotected and only deals with points.

Should there be restrictions on how many levels a competitor's entries can span?
There should be no extra restrictions on cross-style spans, other than what a couple is eligible for under time and points. Within a style, either one level only or the lowest legal level + a higher level. If competitions want to allow Novice as a third level (ie Silver, Gold and Novice), that's fine by me, but a Syllabus + Novice + Pre-Champ isn't in my opinion. (Ie the only time three levels is appropriate is when Novice is the only "open" level).

As a competitor, I prefer the 2 level span rule within a style; as an event organizer/official of the collegiate events I prefer the 1 level span within a style rule as it keeps the event sizes from exploding.

Should restrictions be based purely on a point system?
No (I think Newcomer at least needs a time restriction). Not sure what else you were alluding to? Something besides points and time? like what?

Also:
What happens to couples who are forced to move up before they are ready?
See my above discussion about splitting Bronze to Bronse + Copper to create a place for them to stay long term. However it seems that many of the "not ready" college couples would choose to dance silver anyways -- for social reasons (its where their friends probably are), ego reasons (I've been dancing X months, therefore I must be silver), etc

What rules least encourage dancing down?
Rules that make everyone feel like they have a chance to "succeed" at their "proper" level. Anytime you have levels like collegiate silver (hard chargers from the current year, the bulk of the 1-3 year group, plus the long term people that are either social/quasicompetitive, or from underpriviledged teams) you're going to have people wanting to dance down as they feel they have no chance. Also if teams emphasis placements only and not "progress" -- ie when you frist reach silver after having been pointed out of bronze, remember that making a cut (while not making the semi or the final) is still progress and a sign of success. Teams need to push this message so people don't get discouraged when they move up.

Rules that don't artificially inflate someone's level -- the two offenders here are the cross-style spanning rule and the time based rules. Though I feel the latter has mitigating circumstances so it can go either way.

How do people move up through the levels?
Hard work. Teams can help by explaining why the levels are structured the way they are, even if they don't agree with given comp, try to present the "positive" side of the arguements for those rules so people can respect even what they don't prefer. Teams can help by also explaining that what the judges look for at different levels can change -- as you go up the levels the judges tend to look for the 'bigger picture' -- judges who like technique (or flash) at low levels while start to require both at higher, people need to remember to work on their weaknesses, as well as their strengths as they move up.... What made you move up initially probably won't be the thing to improve to continue to move up.
 

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