Macho Culture in Dance

[Brummbaer]

This sort of stuff generally goes with macho conduct, too.

I'm uncertain about that. I used to work with a female who was into similar stuff, but primarily skydiving. Copying? Just wanted to do it?

You can't put these down to 'male' (macho?) activities.

Sure, there's some who use that, just like in AT. But Nobody puts Baby in a corner.... unless you let them.

 

[JournalInTime]

I'm uncertain about that. I used to work with a female who was into similar stuff, but primarily skydiving. Copying? Just wanted to do it?

To be clear: I didn't mean "Enjoying high-risk hobbies," but "Being physically reckless in daily life." I know many men and women who practice the martial arts; a few of the men like to pick fights, but none of the women do. I know men and women who like cars, too; a few of the men drag race and drift, but none of the women do. My experience is that the urge to cross the line from "planned actions in the right place and time" to "reckless actions wherever and whenever" is more common among men. It seems that way in tango, too . . .

 

[pianistamediano]

To be clear: I didn't mean "Enjoying high-risk hobbies," but "Being physically reckless in daily life." I know many men and women who practice the martial arts; a few of the men like to pick fights, but none of the women do. I know men and women who like cars, too; a few of the men drag race and drift, but none of the women do. My experience is that the urge to cross the line from "planned actions in the right place and time" to "reckless actions wherever and whenever" is more common among men. It seems that way in tango, too . . .

Indeed; in other words, a flagrant disregard for other people's wellbeing, immense disrespect, appalling arrogance and delusions of their way being the only and right way, et cetera...

 

[Brummbaer]

Indeed; in other words, a flagrant disregard for other people's wellbeing, immense disrespect, appalling arrogance and delusions of their way being the only and right way, et cetera...

The point being that 'high-risk activities' are no longer 'macho', although some will still take those as testosterone-fuelled 'manly', with all the attributes you list and some more.

I'm now thinking of that craze for 'extreme ironing'.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

The Périphérique is always a nightmare but for real scary try riding round the Arc de Triomphe on a motorbike!

The legendary traffic circle.

 

[Brummbaer]

At least at DF, I disagree.

See here.

I'm shocked, I tell you. Amsolutely shocked And I thought a PDA was a Personal Digital Assistant.

OK, it's not about 'whataboutery'. It is a serious topic. I find it interesting that the historical AT 'Code of Conduct' in a macho society, by our standards, were the milonga codigos. Perhaps it says more about society.

 

[Bailango]

OK, it's not about 'whataboutery'. It is a serious topic. I find it interesting that the historical AT 'Code of Conduct' in a macho society, by our standards, were the milonga codigos. Perhaps it says more about society.

Care to elaborate the point you are making please. I don’t think I am getting what you are driving at.

 

[Brummbaer]

Care to elaborate the point you are making please. I don’t think I am getting what you are driving at.

Two points:

The issue was considered limited to AT; but what about swing, Latin dances, ballroom competition? All slightly different issues, but the same base - unacceptable behaviour in that society and culture (and not even getting into normal English words which are offensive in the US, and the US usage which sometimes amuses us). They're now considering the need for formal 'codes of conduct'. i.e. there's an issue beyond AT on these forums.

Social AT 'gatherings' (being more general than milonga, schools, practicas, encuentros) tend not to have formal, written and approved, 'codes of conduct', but rely on codigos, or a generalisation of them as conventions. These originated in a macho culture (and a Spanish, I think, originating word to describe manly, virile) - and are aimed mainly at respecting others. Essentially a 'code of conduct'. You could argue that some 'protected' women in that society as well as men's behaviour to others. We just know what disrespects someone and they will be dealt with.

I'd consider, perhaps incorrectly, Argentine culture to be more macho than European even today. The issues arise with gender equality and working out what that means, e.g. 'objectification'. That's part of the issue also addressed in this thread as we take social AT as more than just a dance, but also a culture. The question might be what old codigos are relevant to Argentina and beyond in today's world?

For example, cabeceo/mirada becomes ambiguous if some males follow/lead and some females also follow/lead (add any other gender preferences). Who invites who, and how? How to negotiate the dance role? It was so much simpler in that macho society. (I wasn't looking for suggestions to solve that dilemma!)

 

[David_In_CA]

See here.

I'm shocked, I tell you. Amsolutely shocked And I thought a PDA was a Personal Digital Assistant.

OK, it's not about 'whataboutery'. It is a serious topic. I find it interesting that the historical AT 'Code of Conduct' in a macho society, by our standards, were the milonga codigos. Perhaps it says more about society.

I was saying that the AT discussions at DF had a tendency to be macho that I didn't see in other discussions in other forums. Which is why I said "DF".

 

[Brummbaer]

I was saying that the AT discussions at DF had a tendency to be macho that I didn't see in other discussions in other forums. Which is why I said "DF".

I'm not saying 'What about discussions on these activities, so it's all ok'; just saying that it's a wider topic with several facets, not limited to AT, as we all negotiate an evolving society.

You could argue that it's a symptom which also needs addressing, but we've become concerned about saying the right thing so that nobody's offended, whilst missing some very real issues, sometimes because it's 'inappropriate' to discuss.

Nevertheless the topic's here if people wish to address that macho aspect...

 

[David_In_CA]

I'm not saying 'What about discussions on these activities, so it's all ok'; just saying that it's a wider topic with several facets, not limited to AT, as we all negotiate an evolving society.

You could argue that it's a symptom which also needs addressing, but we've become concerned about saying the right thing so that nobody's offended, whilst missing some very real issues, sometimes because it's 'inappropriate' to discuss.

Nevertheless the topic's here if people wish to address that macho aspect...

I definitely agree that macho attitudes are more societal thing and not restricted to just one dance scene.

Etiquette rules like the AT codigos are definitely one way to manage that, but it's worth examining whether any given rule works against imbalances or perpetuates them.

For example, cabeceo/mirada becomes ambiguous if some males follow/lead and some females also follow/lead (add any other gender preferences). Who invites who, and how? How to negotiate the dance role?

You have to be more open to what you dance, basically. I dance (WCS) in a couple of scenes where the verbal conversation often goes like this:
P1: Would you like to dance?
P2: Sure, would you like to lead or follow?

Generally, I assume that if nothing is known about the two dancers the asker is prepared to accommodate the askee's role preference. And typically the more advanced dancer will try to give the less advanced dancer the choice.

Sometimes it works better than other times -- you'd both like to lead this one, or follow it, for example. Or if you only want to lead or follow you ask someone who you know mostly does the opposite role.

(Of course there are other options too when asking verbally, but that's the one that's probably closest to the AT nonverbal situation.)

 

[Brummbaer]

...the verbal conversation...

That's the point. The myth of the 'traditional' cabeceo/mirada invitation is that there's no verbal interaction (but, of course, there is), but changes in culture mean that the tradition is no longer adequate. May as well just request verbally (except a verbal refusal would, in some culture, 'disrespect' the requester).

You might sometimes guess a female leader/follower by the shoes, but I've only ever seen one male coping well with dancing in high heels.

As you say:

you ask someone who you know mostly does the opposite role

 

[David_In_CA]

That's the point. The myth of the 'traditional' cabeceo/mirada invitation is that there's no verbal interaction (but, of course, there is), but changes in culture mean that the tradition is no longer adequate. May as well just request verbally (except a verbal refusal would, in some culture, 'disrespect' the requester).

Well, my point was that we often accept before figuring out the role, which I think would be equivalent to cabeceo and then working out the role on the floor.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I'd consider, perhaps incorrectly, Argentine culture to be more macho than European even today.

Don't forget that there are also women in that society and their own attitudes are unlike women's attitudes in Europe (especially northern) and North America. It's far too simplistic to call it a macho society (whatever that means). Such behavior can be found anywhere in the world. What is different is how men *and* women view themselves and their sexuality. It takes 2 to tango.

 

[Brummbaer]

It's far too simplistic to call it a macho society (whatever that means).

I agree, but that's the title we ended up with, despite attempts to find alternatives. Patriarchy vs. Matriarchy? Even there it's sometimes looking at dominance by one gender, rather than chosen(?) roles. Macho just emphasises the societal role men are expected to play, without explicitly defining the consequential roles for others. A further consequence is that role descriptions are from that designated perspective.

It takes 2 to tango.

I think the issue is that some don't want to 'tango' to that 'tune'.