Macho Culture in Dance

[Brummbaer]

For many years I wore a black shirt for tango and a white one for salsa. But the tango women said white suits you much better. So I dressed the same in both communities. I am currently at swing events a lot. Then I put on a bowling shirt and the tweed cap on. During the black tango phase, I often wore a dark fedora. So, am I objectifying myself?

You're playing a role.

 

[itwillhappen]

If we don’t pretend we there solely to please the guys, why be there, right? It can’t possibly be for the dance itself… If she dances well, that’s just a bonus, right?

Specifically to that, the layer of our cultivated behavior is often thinner than we think, and there are various traumata on the way through the tango. Between peace and war there are often only a few missed meals or sat evenings.

I sometimes drive to a milonga with a buddy. At first he didn't feel accepted by the inner circle there (and the outer circle couldn't offer him enough). Yes, of course, appearing a couple of times is not enough there, it takes a few years if you are suitable, longer than the rest of your life if you are not suitable.
But I've been there for a few years now and as a carpool we can come more often. The noble tangueras cherish and care for only maybe four noble tangueros there. What shall I say, within a relatively short time we were faced with a row of attractively dancing, attractively looking, attractively behaving tangueras, we can simply omit this weighing up.

And again, I reject any responsibility for situations that arise, because in northern Europe dancing is much more attractive to women than to men, and the former are pushing into the tango in greater numbers. But I also try not to blame anyone personally for things, that are obviously due to the circumstances.

 

[itwillhappen]

For many years I wore a black shirt for tango and a white one for salsa. But the tango women said white suits you much better. So I dressed the same in both communities. I am currently at swing events a lot. Then I put on a bowling shirt and the tweed cap on. During the black tango phase, I often wore a dark fedora. So, am I objectifying myself?

What does your therapist say?

 

[opendoor]

What does your therapist say?

Hey, where did you buy that shirt?

 

[LadyLeader]

This posting is not following the line of the title but more to give a background why I am against the one sided content in the title.

Feminism has been the tool to open up options for women. In west and nordic countries specifically, these possibilities are guaranteed for women to a quite high degree today. IMO at this level the society should to switch from feminism to a model which is monitoring and balancing the wellbeing of both groups - men and women.

"Gender equality makes our communities safer and healthier
Unequal societies are less cohesive. They have higher rates of anti-social behavior and violence. Countries with greater gender equality are more connected. Their people are healthier and have better wellbeing."
30 Mar 2021 - The benefits of gender equality | Victorian Government|

I really believe that equality and mixed groups will stimulate growth and development of societies way better than a single group versions.

Finland has one of the longest history of female voting, a quite good reputation in education and pushing forward womens' issues. Today the Finnish schooling system is failing to educate boys and about 60-70% sometimes even more of students are girls. If these education problems are not balanced we can get a female dominant society in future. For me this would be as bad as a male dominant society!

 

[itwillhappen]

Finland has one of the longest history of female voting, a quite good reputation in education and pushing forward womens' issues. Today the Finnish schooling system is failing to educate boys and about 60-70% sometimes even more of students are girls.

I'm just wondering if the women are already making full use of their equal rights in the combat units on the Russian border by equal numbers?

But it doesn't matter, men are imho really not systematically disadvantaged when it comes to couple dancing, they obviously don't want to waste their time with it.
And even if, in tango there are a number of events that grant a male quota of at least 50%.

 

[Rabbit]

Yes, of course, appearing a couple of times is not enough there, it takes a few years if you are suitable,

Sorry but that is just ridiculous. Well, I know such people exist, but I don't see how they are improving even their own experience this way.

 

[LadyLeader]

I'm just wondering if the women are already making full use of their equal rights in the combat units on the Russian border?

I do not believe in the 50/50 pattern used today to define equality. It is simple and handy but not scientific.

I believe in more complex patterns imbedded deep in the instinct systems. More in line we see today - men are fighting at the borders and women fleeing the country with children. The male/female differences drive a broader number of strategies to save the offspring.

 

[itwillhappen]

Sorry but that is just ridiculous. Well, I know such people exist, but I don't see how they are improving even their own experience this way.

Those who isolate themselves don't prevent anyone from dancing, and those who feel disturbed don't take enough care of their own affairs. But it goes against your interests as a community builder, and so you instinctively apply your standards of value to justify such devaluation.

If you exchange a few words and enter the embrace, then you feel the same conflicts, the same fears as of other participants, only with more experience.

 

[LadyLeader]

For women, if we are not styled up super over-the-top sexy, we don’t get many dances. That you and other guys are (or pretend to be) unaware of this issue, is proof in point. And this IS part of the dehumanizing objectification, although subtle

I can understand the feeling of dehumanization in milonga situation but the leaders are maybe not the only reason. If you imagine yourself in milongas below - are they the same for you?

Milonga A: 50 followers and 20 leaders

Milonga B: 20 followers and 50 leaders

Personally the leader/follower ratio plays a part in the dehumanization of me in leader roll.

There is one more suggestion! When I am in a unknown *milonga A* and all followers are in black I have difficulties to recognize one. If you would have a dress with white/black stripes it would be easier to notice and invite you. It is not about your shaved legs, polished nails or eye makeup because at distance most leaders cannot see those details. It is about your visibility at distance contrasting the female group, the well known red dress syndrome.

For fun try different options where you minimize the up-styling but rise the observation value of your dress!

 

[JournalInTime]

For women, if we are not styled up super over-the-top sexy, we don’t get many dances. That you and other guys are (or pretend to be) unaware of this issue, is proof in point. And this IS part of the dehumanizing objectification, although subtle. Apparently so subtle that you don’t get it. If we don’t pretend we there solely to please the guys, why be there, right? It can’t possibly be for the dance itself… If she dances well, that’s just a bonus, right?

I have a lot of tanguera friends who talk with me over coffee, via Messenger during the week, and so on. All of them say pretty much what you just said:

The more time they burn on hair, makeup, clothing, etc., the more tandas they get – and they hate that men pretend not to see it, because of course they see it, or why would more styled-up women get more dances?

The last time a tanguera said that to me was (checks Messenger) 11.5 hours ago. While we're at it, she also said she was tired of leaders who expect "obedience school" following rather than creative following where she gets to propose half of the dance.

So, I suspect that plenty of tangueras are saying it but relatively few tangueros are listening . . .

 

[JournalInTime]

A follower friend always tells me that when she has anything red on her, she gets more dances. She is mystified why it is so. Same venue, same crowd, more dances on the days she is in red. When I see her at a milonga wearing a red dress or with red scarf I ask if she is getting more dances. If I don’t, she might come to me and say “see I have this red on and I am getting more dances”. She is convinced she gets far more dances when she is wearing something red.

My girlfriend says the same thing: She has a few items of red tango clothing. When she wears them, she dances more. Her opinion is that it's tied to the whole "red is the color of love" thing. I'm not sure, being a colorblind guy; I'm just relating (and translating, from French) her words.

 

[LadyLeader]

Yes, of course, appearing a couple of times is not enough there, it takes a few years if you are suitable, longer than the rest of your life if you are not suitable.

To close my dance circle has for periods been the only option to survive at my local tango scene.

On once-a-year events I have waited for accepted capeceo to the third year. A follower was in similar process with me, she told!

 

[JournalInTime]

Milonga A: 50 followers and 20 leaders
Milonga B: 20 followers and 50 leaders

I have an impossible time imagining the second situation because it never happens where I live!

The first situation is close to typical here, although the odds are closer to "30-40 followers and 20 leaders." I think the worst case of "too many leaders" I've ever seen in my 10 years of tango was at the start of this one milonga when the leaders arrived before the followers, so there were 8-9 followers for 10-11 leaders . . . but that swung around to about 3 followers for every 2 leaders by the end of the first hour.

Personally the leader/follower ratio plays a part in the dehumanization of me in leader roll.

My observation of our follower-heavy milongas is that the ratio has two different effects:

1. With many followers per leader, leaders are picky. They can literally walk down a long row of followers and dance with the ones they like. More often than not, it isn't the skilled, experienced followers who get picked; it's young, attractive ones. This is objectification of follower youth and attractiveness . . . and, since most followers here are female, objectification of female youth and attractiveness.

2. With many followers per leader, leaders are overworked. They get glared at when they take breaks, and are expected to dance more; if there are two followers for each leader, then while followers in an ideal world get a break every other tanda, leaders get no breaks. This is objectification of leader vigor and sense of duty to followers . . . and, since most leaders here are male, objectification of male vigor and sense of duty to women.

Consequently, the leader:follower ratio closely tracks the men:women ratio here (often, they're exactly the same), and tends to bin women into "pretty" vs. "not pretty" and "young" vs. "not young," and men into "physically fit" vs. "not physically fit" and "feels obligated to look after women" vs. "feels women should look after themselves." It's altogether too close to cheerleaders-and-jocks or stereotyped-ladies-and-gentlemen for my comfort. (And yes, I dislike woman = lady and man = gentleman, as it's a conservative stereotype dripping with sexist assumptions.)

 

[LadyLeader]

With many followers per leader, leaders are picky. They can literally walk down a long row of followers and dance with the ones they like.

But what could be the other, more human alternatives?

The only option I have come up with is to close my dance circle totally and dance just with a handful friends. Everybody knows that I dance just with them. This minimizes the disappointments mostly to zero.