Macho Culture in Dance

[David_In_CA]

The argument regarding cultural relativity seems moot when statistics are presented that show women within said culture overwhelmingly feel uncomfortable with the behavior. Defending the behavior with semantics instead of acknowledging that women fear for their safety is gross.

I'm not actually a fan of moral relativity, just saying that I think it's some of what's going on in the thread. You know, "it's fine that the people there do the <whatever>, it's part of the culture". But I think there's also a separate question of words in other languages and cultures not always having perfect direct translations, and having more meanings or different connotations than their translations.

 

[itwillhappen]

For me, personally, is it not so important in the old thread how women's rights in Argentina are or were, and I could ask my ex-girlfriend when she is back from her second(!) BA tango vacation.
But when I was skimming the content, I realized that one woman would like to be touched in the embrace without an emotional connection, while another would like it with an emotional connection beforehand.
Yes, yes, I always had the suspicion that I couldn't please all the ladies...

 

[Brummbaer]

it's ok to make the mistake. It's not ok to insist on continuing to make it after the mistake is pointed out.

But as soon as we end up back in the territory of X is fine, something has gone wrong.

I agree, but then there was once 'religious' justification for slavery and consequent treatment together with vehement 'religious' opposition. Or support and opposition to racial treatment, even today. Learned treatese were written for both stances.

Defending the behavior with semantics instead of acknowledging that women fear for their safety is gross.

Yes it is, but it's not a new phenomenon.

So people defend their viewpoint. That's our world. It's the old I may not like what you say, but you have a right to say it. (And I'm certainly not defending those views or expressing them in that way). We have to show that the alternative is better (a win-win), but maybe we're also in Star Trek territory of keeping and not affecting a culture.

But back to dance. AT isn't steps and sequences; it comes along with a whole cultural baggage. 'Ballroom' cleaned it up for that market, but the risqué associations still have an appeal, at least to marketing. Those probably enticed travellers in the GA, and then those travellers and dance reporters who gave us milonguero and the like in the 1970's, 80's and 90's. Sometimes those rules and traditions appeal, maybe modified for another market; sometimes they're defended as 'tradition', and sometimes the whole lifestyle culture is embraced, or rejected as outdated and inappropriate to our own (which is obviously better to some). That's where we are.

 

[Steve Pastor]

First I have to thank David_In_CA for this "I'd bet good money that Steve hasn't catcalled anyone he's not very good friends with this century."
I haven't laughed so hard since I was thrown out of Bushwhackers and the bouncer yelled after me, "Goodbye, old man." My cheeks are already aching again just thinking of it.

I will say that I have insulated coffee mugs that are decades older than the people who make my coffee with shots of espresso. We could maybe have a thread about the pluses and minuses of the current and past centuries.

More David .... Lilly seemed to be more arguing that the action is ok?

This is what lily wrote.
"Personally, I would not consider piropos a harassment. I never felt threatened or offended in such case. It is not catcalling, wolf whistling or anything like that. As Jantango said, it is never aggressive, nor require any reaction from a woman's part. I mostly just ignore the man who says it, and carry on."

jantango
After moving to Buenos Aires in 1999, I had to get used to men on the street whispering something to me as they walked by. Their comments were meant only for me in a low voice. I learned that Argentine women do not acknowledge these comments, but they hear them without getting upset. They are part of every day life in the city where there are lots of people walking all hours of the day and night.

It's not uncommon for a young man to acknowledge an older woman with a piropo. When this happened to me, I accepted that this is something Argentine men do in the city. They aren't aggressive nor do they expect the woman to respond in any way.

One situation stands out. Alito and I were walking from my apartment to the milonga at Lo de Celia. I held his arm while walking down the street as always. A young man directed a piropo to me from the other side of the street. This says something about Argentine men who feel no hesitation to express themselves to strangers in public. It's a part of life in the city of Buenos Aires.

"Piropos are abundant between dances in the milongas. Some are published in B. A. Tango magazine for all to enjoy. The women who contribute them certainly do."

Both of these posts aren't arguments, they are statements of fact by women who, either visited BA frequently, or in jantango's case, have lived there since 1999.

I think piropos are pretty well defined.

itwillhappen​

if you remember, ask your gf about young people texting each other rather than using cabeceo at milongas, as was mentioned in the DIss'd thread. And please let us know what she says.

​

 

[Tango Distance]

Cerinthe: I agree with your characterization of some of the conversations in the Tango forum. I have been mortified at some posts in the past, which said things that would certainly get you fired at my job. On top of the original posts, some posters publicly lashed out against the moderators for deleting some posts! More will come on that.

This post discusses comments about postings about women here on the Tango Forum on DF. It doesn't address whys for the wider issues of looks, Tango history, etc.

Why does the Argentine tango forum particularly reek of objectification and macho entitlement?

That is a fair question.

... the burden falls to men in men-only spaces to ... speak up against misogynistic conversations.

You put out a call to action. I'm with you so far.

Unfortunately the burden falls to men in men-only spaces to risk their pride and friendships and speak up against misogynistic conversations. Only then will serious progress be made. I recognize how difficult it is for many men to put themselves out there at all, let alone in situations when their “manliness” might be called into question.

You have a call to action, kudos for that. Is publicly calling out a problem always the best (or "only") solution? My suggestion is a more nuanced and adaptable approach might bring even more success. I would replace "speak up" with "do something."

• Ignore it / don't react -- For example, I think dirty jokes are not professional and can be degrading. I don't laugh, I don't react angrily, I keep a neutral face. Soon, the dirty jokes stop (around me at least). Internet trolls love a reaction, the bigger the better! Often it is best to not feed the trolls, and the quickest way to kill something is to not respond. Final case, there are some bad people who will use your words to make fun of you or even try to hurt you. Look up "gray rocking," for example https://www.healthline.com/health/grey-rock . Also, we are often not as clever as we think we are, despite being right, and do not fare well in a public debate (not saying that is true here and now, but as a general principle).
• Call someone aside privately -- Being called out publicly can put someone on the defensive, like if they have a good heart and honestly didn't know they didn't use the correct, modern word for something. There are good reasons for the expression "Criticize in private, praise in public."
• Pulling out your cell phone and videoing can be amazing at putting the brakes on bad behavior. Yeah, video doesn't work on a forum, but you can save borderline posts if you need to show a trend of bad behavior.
• Praise good behavior.
• Appeal to authority: I know that moderators here have quickly deleted offensive posts. I have pointed out offensive posts, and thanked moderators for doing good things. There is likely more behind-the-scenes support than you realize.
• Call out the problem loudly enough for all to hear: There are certainly times for this, but I wouldn't call it an "always do this" or "always best" kind of solution.
• Physically intervene: Not easily done on a forum, but I included it for a more complete list.

Saying men don't speak up due to fear of what others think is too simple. I'm sure that is true in some cases, but it also happens that after considering options an intelligent man could very reasonably decide a higher chance for success would use one of the more back-channel methods to fight the problem. FWIW, I have done every item on the list, it depends on the situation.

 

[itwillhappen]

itwillhappen​

if you remember, ask your gf about young people texting each other rather than using cabeceo at milongas, as was mentioned in the DIss'd thread. And please let us know what she says.

It will take a few more weeks and might be of little use if I filter it unconsciously. The fact that she went again after 4 months for a BA tango trip is also an answer. What I do know: she found the people there to be mostly very helpful, which she believes is also due to the bad economic situation, which forces everyone to work a lot, to help a lot and to accept a lot of help.

The tango business in BA is obviously a tourist business where you can make respectable money. It doesn't surprise me that machos and feminists have serious conflicts of interest there. Her main teacher is in the feminist faction, and it's about body work, feeling and awareness.

It's IMHO completely different here in Northern Europe. The tango business is a low-wage group that women can occupy without serious discrimination, regardless of social equality efforts. This has long been the case in all solo dances from ballet to line dance; only the special case of partner dances is and remains interesting.

 

[itwillhappen]

You put out a call to action. I'm with you so far.

Sorry, I still can't reconcile the experiences of a muscle-bound former hardcore criminal in the ghetto with my local tango culture and my experience at milongas.

 

[Brummbaer]

young people texting each other rather than using cabeceo

Txting? Really?

Interesting. I've heard it, or similar, suggested for clubbing nights-out, but (unintended consequences)...

Txting (SMS) implies you know the contact details. The alternative seems like: Txt <number> for a good tanda. Or the prospect of entering your contact details (a dance card?) on entry to the milonga. But then, oh dear, 'objectification' - I'm not a number

Other smartphone contact and communication options are available (NFC - Near Field Communication). Some developers I worked with were considering these options to determine passengers present on a bus (the aim was to inform potential travellers that this bus was packed, but the next might not be so packed). But then we get to the 'app' - Tinder for a tanda? Maybe TandaR™ (yes, maybe the new tango tanda app - you saw it here first)? Market your objectifying details: gender, roles available, dance experience, orchestra preferences, abrazo style preferred, dance style preferred... Swipe right for a tanda or swipe left to be cast out?

Yes, in all seriousness, it's possible, but txting just seems so old-fashioned, and implies that you know that person socially to have their contact details. Other options are available, but just seem to lead to a non-gendered , pre-advertised, objectified, meat market. A more modern, non-gendered, sanitised version of tener la lata in a pirigundine.

(Please note, I'm not restricting that to any gender!)

If potential dancers take their nose out of their smartphone and look around, then traditional cabeceo/mirada can work in some venues. Failing that a traditional, non-Argentine, respectful, non-harassing, request to a nearby social contact, as with many other dances. Just seems so much easier.

 

[Brummbaer]

Sorry, I still can't reconcile the experiences of a muscle-bound former hardcore criminal in the ghetto with my local tango culture and my experience at milongas.

Ah, but they had their codigos and summarily dealt with those who didn't comply. But then, if you were in the gang...

And now, shunned? (Reminded of Monty Python insults).

 

[David_In_CA]

jantango
After moving to Buenos Aires in 1999, I had to get used to men on the street whispering something to me as they walked by. Their comments were meant only for me in a low voice. I learned that Argentine women do not acknowledge these comments, but they hear them without getting upset.

That part from jantango felt a bit like cultural relativism to me. "It's fine because it's just what the Argentines do." But Oliver in that thread had studies that seemed to indicate that women in Arg actually aren't all as comfortable with street comments as suggested.

jantango:

"Piropos are abundant between dances in the milongas. Some are published in B. A. Tango magazine for all to enjoy. The women who contribute them certainly do."

This to me indicates that"Piropos" just covers a wider range of meanings. I wouldn't be surprised if some are perfectly innocuous and others are pretty bad.

To put another spin on things -- it usually doesn't bother me to get the "where are you from" question (you know, the one that's because you're not a clearly identifiable race) if it's just done with curiosity. But I'd generally suggest that it's not really a good thing to ask if you're white, and it's something that bothers the heck out of my partner. So while these street comments might be perfectly ok with a certain demographic of Arg women (or at least rationalized as ok), it's entirely possible that there are others that don't find it ok. Or that women decide that it's considered OK because acknowledging that it bothers them makes it too hard to get through the day without exploding.

 

[Bailango]

What are piropos and their cultural context in Argentina? Is piropos an Argentine Spanish term?

 

[Brummbaer]

What are piropos and their cultural context in Argentina? Is piropos an Argentine Spanish term?

There are details in the referenced 'Diss'ed' thread. As I understand it, flattering or flirtatious compliments made to women, and on the street, but taken as 'catcalling' at some level, which seems to be where that discussion started. I'd guess it covered a whole spectrum from basic flattering through to unwanted vulgar innuendo.

 

[Bailango]

There are details in the referenced 'Diss'ed' thread. As I understand it, flattering or flirtatious compliments made to women, and on the street, but taken as 'catcalling' at some level, which seems to be where that discussion started. I'd guess it covered a whole spectrum from basic flattering through to unwanted vulgar innuendo.

I didn’t read all 20 pages. I think I read first 7 where the discussions on the term had already started. Hence my question.

I think in the non-USA English speaking world it would get categorized under eve teasing. That term has negative connotations. A good humored eve teasing is also viewed negatively. Those made in good humor or no ill intention may cause less or no offense as a matter of convenience. The perception of offense depends on who is originator and who is receiver and how the receiver feels irrespective of the intention of the originator. In the same circumstances the person (woman) at the receiving end might feel less offended but someone accompanying them might take it as an offense. Like an overprotective female or male relative/friend.

The big question here is uninvited comments made at a stranger no matter how flattering they may be. I doubt it is culturally accepted merely because it is wide spread. The behavior is often solely directed at women. A good test whether they are culturally acceptable is if the someone trying to engage in it will get second thoughts if they notice another man accompanying the woman. Second thoughts or cold feet for fear of getting punched in the face.

 

[Brummbaer]

I think in the non-USA English speaking world it would get categorized under eve teasing.

Never heard of that, and I think part of the original motivation in the discussion was to clarify the translation and culture. It's probably unwise to delve too much into the discussion except to say that, in this part of the world, the extreme 'catcalling' is certainly decried, and as 'street harassment' may even be illegal. At some peak time in the feminist uprising, complimenting someone, or even opening a door, or giving up a seat to someone identifying as female could have been denounced. I'd say that some common sense has now mostly prevailed, although there's a distribution. Unfortunately there remain some offenders at the unwanted extreme.

 

[itwillhappen]

Saying men don't speak up due to fear of what others think is too simple. I'm sure that is true in some cases, but it also happens that after considering options an intelligent man could very reasonably decide a higher chance for success would use one of the more back-channel methods to fight the problem. FWIW, I have done every item on the list, it depends on the situation.

Well. And now back to the topic "Macho Culture in Dance". How often have you observed such situations yourself, or got it reported from your SO, how often have you personally become active?

Me - not sure, I mostly observed arrogance. In six years, my ex-SO told me about two really pushy dance partners, both of them got a clear "NO" at the next invitation and nothing further happened.