Man's Walk: Porteños and Panthers

[JohnEm]

I asked Ricardo Vidort this very question. How to walk ?
His reply was to take one of my CD covers , throw it down on my study floor and slide it across the floor with the toe of his foot ( shoe on )
That's how to do it he said !

What an elegantly simple way to describe it!
You could have saved me all that writing.

Of course in the end there is more to it.

OK. So "straight leg"???
Garvey's photo where he has drawn straight lines are something of an abstarct, I would argue. You can't see the knees of the men and you don't know the degree of flex that is present.
If you look at a few of the photos where the woman is over her weighted foot, there is some "flex" in the knee.

I believe that this "straight leg" is to a large extent the consequence of placing the center of gravity well forward, and letting it move forward before initiating movement of the stepping foot.

With the weight well forward, all you have to do is "tip" forward to initiate a step.

Well I know how much my leg flexes or not!
To the casual observer it would look straight
though the knee is unlocked because a locked
knee results in a very wooden/mechanical feel.
Certainly I don't launch from a bent leg, the whole
movement works best from tipping into the start
of the walk exactly as you say. Body first, leg after,
almost as if you have to save yourself from falling over.

v22TTC ... I think that always demo's can be an exaggeration .
Leading with the toe and toe before heel is what he meant.
Shoot the foot forward .
Anyhow when I tried this , he said , correct. So that is what I do !
Ricardo never seems to over emphasise anything in his dancing . Always very gentle !

He is quoted as saying "always lead with the toe".
He may have done, perhaps he was emphasising
that it isn't a heel lead, but his landing was solidly
with all the foot as the weight is arriving over it.
We have the benefit of being able to watch him on video,
slowmo it, loop it, stop it, replay etc etc.
Believe me, I have - often.

Gentle maybe, very sure and confident definitely.

 

[v22TTC]

Caminito and JohnEm: Cheers for the clarification of what Ricardo Vidort meant... it wasn't the mental image that I formed from the words - now I get it: my heel hasn't hit the deck before the ball for many years now, in anything... here I need to get them to land at the same time, it seems.

AndaBien and Dchester: Fully agree with the idea of having different walks for different forms of expression - eventually... but I am but a poor newb, so for now want a good default walk that I can do convincingly without having to think about it (after serious practice). Well, that would make two walks, since I can already panther glide on autopilot (it's similar enough to other walks, for other disciplines, that I've practiced).

Re: Straight leg: Yup, I took some softness of the knee and flex as read (you don't want to destroy your knees), as with all (?) good stance and movement. I suppose I should have used inverted-commas but... once I start down that road, most words end up with them, so I try to be sparing with them....

 

[JohnEm]

Caminito and JohnEm: Cheers for the clarification of what Ricardo Vidort meant... it wasn't the mental image that I formed from the words - now I get it: my heel hasn't hit the deck before the ball for many years now, in anything... here I need to get them to land at the same time, it seems.

One of the secrets is not in the big toe, it's in the shoes . . . !

AndaBien and Dchester: Fully agree with the idea of having different walks for different forms of expression - eventually... but I am but a poor newb, so for now want a good default walk that I can do convincingly without having to think about it (after serious practice). Well, that would make two walks, since I can already panther glide on autopilot (it's similar enough to other walks, for other disciplines, that I've practiced).

In my view it's not different walks you want, after all you still have
a partner who shouldn't be confusing and nor should you confuse yourself.
The variations can be expressed within the walk, once you have established it
as your default, rather than by changing it.

 

[dchester]

AndaBien and Dchester: Fully agree with the idea of having different walks for different forms of expression - eventually... but I am but a poor newb, so for now want a good default walk that I can do convincingly without having to think about it (after serious practice). Well, that would make two walks, since I can already panther glide on autopilot (it's similar enough to other walks, for other disciplines, that I've practiced).

I would expect you already have a "default" walk, as it's what you do when you're not thinking about it. I would call it your "natural" walk, (although there are a fair number of teacher who claim the "natural" walk is whatever is happens to be that they do.

So I'll stick with the term, default walk. Maybe you're not fully aware of what you're default is, but understanding that (for you), is a good starting point. From there, understanding why you are trying to do different things from your default (expressing the music, the looks, the feel to your partner, etc), is the next thing to understand.

FWIW, there are other attributes to your walk besides your leg swing, such as your body motion (contrabody, vs a slight up and down, vs a slight rocking motion (rising on the side of foot you land on), etc), how you land your foot (i.e. toe first or heel first). Various teachers will often have strong (and varying) opinions on aspects of the walk (just like every other move in tango). Many times I've had a traveling teacher say to land toe first, and then the next one will say, no, land heel first.

For me, the toe drag is very nice for long slow steps, but for short quick steps, possibly not so much. Sometimes, just moving how the music inspires you (without thinking about it), is as good as anything (less thinking is often a big plus).

 

[caminito]

dchester wrote .... Sometimes, just moving how the music inspires you (without thinking about it), is as good as anything (less thinking is often a big plus).
I'm with you !.
Tango should not be/ and is not rocket science .
It's fun or should be ?
As long as we don't mince or heavy foot around the floor . Lead with our chest not our arms. Dance to the music . Make the dance interesting but not complicated . What more could we ask for.

 

[Angel HI]

This is dance, not science. You might get thirty three different opinions, but the only source that eventually matters is you. And by that I mean you are the source of the dance you give your partner.

I must confess to not reading the entire thread, but this tantamount to beginning to understand the walk. I understand the need to learn proper movement, but there comes a point when one gets 'paralysis by analysis'.

I am a strong proponent of straight legs when moving... relaxed legs when they are together (something that I was taught at the inception of my learning, and have been reminded many times again over the past 25+ yrs. Having said that, I'll repost....

This is dance, not science. You might get thirty three [hundred] different opinions, but the only source that eventually matters is you. And by that I mean you are the source of the dance you give your partner.

 

[plugger]

The first time I saw Tete dance, I thought the way he began caminada with straight "pendulum" legs looked awkward, as if he were falling forward then catching himself. Others assured me this was intentional and was considered elegant. The more I watched Tete, the more I appreciated the look. He was of course equally ready to use a panther walk, sometimes with deep flexing at the knee almost like Gavito, when he wanted to. It seemed that the knees were flexed most of the time, with the more straight-legged walk used to begin his sweeping forward rushes. Probably both ways are useful, although most dancers I see socially are more in the panther mode.

 

[jantango]

This is a dance, not a science.

Exactly. Take JohnEm's advice. Go and practice walking alone until you find what is comfortable for you. You don't need the teacher's approval or anyone else's for that matter on how you have to walk.

You don't have to go believe what you read on Tango and Chaos either. I heard through the tango grapevine that he is no longer interested in dancing tango, so his wife goes alone to the milongas.

 

[ant]

Given the mixed-bags of music in the milongas here, I'm happy to be able to switch between walks (the very beautiful 'Tango for Evora', say, demands smooth gliding) but D'Arienzo's 'more masculine' Tangos should be stepped to a little more convincingly, I feel... and I'd hate to be accused of mincing about when I eventually get to dance somewhere else....:razz:

How you feel your walk reflects your interpretation of the music will dictate your personal style and that is important to us as individuals.

It seems to me there are many variations of leg action, foot fall and body movement when walking. Practise as many as you can find out about and/or your imagination allows, don't limit yourself.

But, whatever style(s) you choose you should ensure, they do not compromise the embrace, they allow you to be able to push off from the floor in a smooth and controlled manner and this force sends a clear message in the embrace to your partner.

 

[Angel HI]

Needs repeating, and taken to heart....

Exactly. Take JohnEm's advice. Go and practice walking alone until you find what is comfortable for you. You don't need the teacher's approval or anyone else's for that matter on how you have to walk.

How you feel your walk reflects your interpretation of the music will dictate your personal style and that is important to us as individuals.

It seems to me there are many variations of leg action, foot fall and body movement when walking. Practise as many as you can......

 

[tangobro]

(For clarity) Terms re: walk:-

'Porteño': Stepping onto a straight leg from a straight leg, like an upside-down pendulum, producing an up/down oscillation and a solid step, with no foot-sliding, and most of the momentum coming from your chest-forward-tilt;

It's been a while since I've looked at Tango & Chaos. Is this an example of what you mean by a Porteño walk?

Ney Melo & Jennifer Bratt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCtMJDmyQWM

 

[JohnEm]

Go and practice walking alone until you find what is comfortable for you. You don't need the teacher's approval or anyone else's for that matter on how you have to walk.

While I agree, I've done it and still practise, you have to find a walk
that works for the circumstances. Walking on your own can be very
misleading to the point that you can be embedding the wrong thing.

So listen to feedback from partners, solicited and unsolicited(!), and
self-analyse at leisure. A critique I got was a hesitancy. It took an
accidental "mistake" to trigger a moment of discovery that, contrary to
what I thought, I was floating my foot above the floor before landing.

You don't have to go believe what you read on Tango and Chaos either. I heard through the tango grapevine that he is no longer interested in dancing tango, so his wife goes alone to the milongas.

You mean Alej is available to dance with - I'm coming over!

It isn't a question of believing, it's a question of learning the right technique
and then working with it. Milongueros learnt from watching and experimenting
with each other and at least we have a little window into their world. I don't know
of a remotely similar resource but would be interested if anyone knows.

It's been a while since I've looked at Tango & Chaos. Is this an example of what you mean by a Porteño walk?

Ney Melo & Jennifer Bratt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCtMJDmyQWM

Not really, though the description Porteño walk is v22TTC's.
It's too soft, mostly heel lead. Watching demonstrations always gives
a false impression anyway. One clue is the title of Elegant Walking Steps.
Looks and sounds like modern teachified VU.

 

[Peaches]

While I agree in theory with John's and Jan's advice about finding your own walk that works for you and is comfortable for you, there are still just so many pitfalls to be found there. Have you ever really looked at how people walk? (This is what I do when I take smoke breaks at work, so I've pondered this a good bit.) So many people slouch, so many (women, especially) tuck their pelvis under. So many women, especially in heels, do not roll through their foot. Heads and chins forward, no tone in their core, swaybacked, waddling. They don't push off from one foot to another. And on and on and on...

So, yes, ultimately it comes down to a walk that works for you. But there can be significant issues to overcome before that "walk that works for you" becomes "natural." Yes, practicing your walk on your own is good...but if you're practicing bad habits then it's only going to get in the way.

And none of this even touches on the idea of how to walk when you're essentially attached to another person. It takes practice--with someone, and hopefully with good guidance--to learn how to walk backwards while keeping your weight forward. How to drive from one step to another, how to walk from the middle of one step to the middle of another, how to really walk forward into someone.

So, yeah. Find a walk that works for you. But make sure you're using good technique...which often happens with lessons.

 

[caminito]

Ney Melo & Jennifer Bratt Youtube
I don't think that this is a good example of how to walk in tango.
His heel goes down first and that is not correct imho !

 

[JohnEm]

Now Peaches you've really widened the brief!

While I agree in theory with John's and Jan's advice about finding your own walk that works for you and is comfortable for you, there are still just so many pitfalls to be found there. Have you ever really looked at how people walk? (This is what I do when I take smoke breaks at work, so I've pondered this a good bit.) So many people slouch, so many (women, especially) tuck their pelvis under. So many women, especially in heels, do not roll through their foot. Heads and chins forward, no tone in their core, swaybacked, waddling. They don't push off from one foot to another. And on and on and on...

Yes on every count, including trying to help learning and practice partners
improve posture, their normal walk and look. From experience they have
to be really keen on Tango to respond. But if they do, and work on it,
the results can be a significant positive Tango effect.

So, yes, ultimately it comes down to a walk that works for you. But there can be significant issues to overcome before that "walk that works for you" becomes "natural." Yes, practicing your walk on your own is good...but if you're practicing bad habits then it's only going to get in the way.

And none of this even touches on the idea of how to walk when you're essentially attached to another person. It takes practice--with someone, and hopefully with good guidance--to learn how to walk backwards while keeping your weight forward. How to drive from one step to another, how to walk from the middle of one step to the middle of another, how to really walk forward into someone.

Yes, there is only so much you can do your own. You need to practise with a partner.

So, yeah. Find a walk that works for you. But make sure you're using good technique...which often happens with lessons.

Technique in lessons! You should be so lucky. In my experience such little
technique that gets taught is often ignored. In classes it's too easy to assume
that such improvements don't apply to you. After all "you" are perfect.

Personal deficiencies definitely don't get mentioned, and rightly so of course,
so it has to be generalised. Then teacher(s) quickly move on to teaching steps.
It's much safer ground.

In theory one answer is private lessons - a too costly solution for many.
And there still are many pitfalls including the first one of how you choose.