Milonga codes of Buenos Aires accepted in Hong Kong milonga

[bastet]

Another thing that BsAs has that we don't (at least at the milongas I frequent), is lots of seating. What people there do, is put on their glasses for the cabeceo, and then once the selection has been made, they take off their glasses and put them on their table. The milongas that I go to don't have enough seating to make this practical. So if you wear glasses (like I do), and don't have a table (like anyone who didn't show up, right when it started), you are at a disadvantage, with respect to the cabeceo (unless you keep you glasses on).

it's true we tend to be a little low on seating.

Quite a few of the milongas we have are at places like coffee shops- minimal seating that is not easy to navigate once the tables get moved- and I fear them being lost or crushed...

The venues being small probably could make cabeceo easier, but I've been dancing awhile and know most people in the community and am used to them so it's kind of a moot point on cabeceo for me- we use it (sort of) but are well aquainted already and I don't mind doing the asking with people I am already aquainted with.

I guess I'll get my chance again for cabeceo with unknowns here in the next couple of weeks at Tangofest.

 

[hbboogie1]

Yeah, and the flip side of this is that you go to a milonga and you're either dancing, or you're sitting there by yourself with no intereaction. Because if you're talking, you obviously must not want to dance. If you're not scanning the room, you obviously must not want to dance. If you're taking a sip of something or nibbling a bit of food, you obviously must not want to dance. If you came with a friend, you obviously must not want to dance (unless the two of you split up, in which case, why bother going with a friend).

I flippin' hate the cabeceo. Man up already, and walk up and ask.

Apparently it works in BsAs. Fine. I hope it damn well stays there.

Peaches you hit the nail on the head and don’t even know it. If you’re talking to a friend you obviously don’t want to dance so you’re not looking across the room to catch someone’s eye. Ever notice how rude it is when a guy walks up and interrupts a conversation with a hand in your face…can’t happen with the cabeceo.
If your eating you won’t be interrupted but if you do want to dance even while having a conversation with a friend just look across the room see if someone is trying to catch your eye and smile, your dancing.
Man up already walk up and ask. One of the main reasons for the cabeceo is that no one will be embarrassed by rejection publicly. Do you think a latin man would risk walking across a dance floor to ask you to dance and risk being rejected in front of the entire room? And how about the man that walks up to the pretty lady sitting next to you and asks her to dance and gets turned down so he reaches out to you (not his first choice) How does that make you feel? The cabeceo works in BsAs because it’s the way it’s done. Here in the US we don’t do it but I’d say that when a woman in BsAs looks away it only means she doesn’t want to dance at that moment she’s not rejecting the man and he’ll try again later. In the US a man can walk up and get rejected in public and never ever ask that woman again.
It really has it’s pro’s and con’s.

 

[jantango]

"...but I’d say that when a woman in BsAs looks away it only means she doesn’t want to dance at that moment she’s not rejecting the man and he’ll try again later."

I will disagree and tell you why. In talking with milongueros, I learned that once they are rejected, they never invite a woman again. No means no to them. Men whom I have rejected know that I'm not going to change my mind. The encounter happens only by mutual agreement.

I wrote Las Chinitas in Hong Kong and received a reply that one of them is coming to Buenos Aires in December.

 

[Peaches]

Peaches you hit the nail on the head and don’t even know it. If you’re talking to a friend you obviously don’t want to dance so you’re not looking across the room to catch someone’s eye. Ever notice how rude it is when a guy walks up and interrupts a conversation with a hand in your face…can’t happen with the cabeceo.

Exactly why I hate it. So...sit there without interaction hoping to be asked to dance. Boring. Lonely. Or, strike up a friendly conversation with someone to pass the time and you don't get asked. Either way, with that sort of an approach to things I might as well stay home. Screw that.

I don't think it's rude, if I'm chatting mildly with someone, for a guy to interrrupt--politely--and ask if I'd be interested in dancing. That's why I'm there. I can say "no," "sorry no," or "sorry I'm in the middle of something can I find you in a bit?" A hand in my face is rude. A man walking up and saying, "Excuse me, I'm sorry to interrupt, but would you like to dance?" is not rude.

If your eating you won’t be interrupted but if you do want to dance even while having a conversation with a friend just look across the room see if someone is trying to catch your eye and smile, your dancing.

And I consider it rude to be looking around the room trying to catch someone's eye, instead of keeping eye contact with the person I'm currently talking to. I look at people when I speak with them; I consider it good manners.

One of the main reasons for the cabeceo is that no one will be embarrassed by rejection publicly. Do you think a latin man would risk walking across a dance floor to ask you to dance and risk being rejected in front of the entire room? And how about the man that walks up to the pretty lady sitting next to you and asks her to dance and gets turned down so he reaches out to you (not his first choice) How does that make you feel?

Oh, please. It's an unaccepted invitation to dance, not the end of the world. And it's not as if the entire room is watching each invitation--people are too busy getting on with their own dancing to give much of a fig about what others are doing. (Or, they're busybodies without lives of their own.) Being asked as a second choice doesn't phase me--if I want to dance, I happily accept. So what? There could be a whole host of reasons why the first woman turned him down.

I'm just reminded of what the host of the milonga I frequent has said: the men have to learn to be men. In her opinion, the women have to learn to be graceful about not getting asked to dance (which sucks), the men have to learn to have the stones to be a man and invite a lady. And she's Argentine.

The cabeceo works in BsAs because it’s the way it’s done. Here in the US we don’t do it but I’d say that when a woman in BsAs looks away it only means she doesn’t want to dance at that moment she’s not rejecting the man and he’ll try again later. In the US a man can walk up and get rejected in public and never ever ask that woman again.
It really has it’s pro’s and con’s.

Surely it works there, at least on some level, which means it's got to have its good points. I just don't like it. I think it's a lot of convoluted nonsense that doesn't sit well with my idea of either a good time or etiquette. But, it works there, so great. I'm just glad the men around here will get up and ask. Because personally, I hate it.

 

[Peaches]

I will disagree and tell you why. In talking with milongueros, I learned that once they are rejected, they never invite a woman again. No means no to them. Men whom I have rejected know that I'm not going to change my mind. The encounter happens only by mutual agreement.

And here is yet another reason why I dislike it. Particularly if she "says no" but not making eye contact--perhaps she wanted to take a break right then, perhaps she didn't like that song, perhaps she wanted to change her shoes. Who knows? Certainly not the milonguero who takes such a hard-line stance to such a mild "rejection."

 

[Me]

Peaches, we are in complete agreement. I'm not going to sit on the edge of my seat all night, eyes darting desperately around the room, no drink or bit of food in my hands, ignoring my friends.

But to all who are reading and enjoy the cabeceo, I understand that my feeling on this one is a rather strong one. I am open to being convinced of the joys of the cabeceo. I just haven't experienced them, personally. It just isn't practiced in my neck of the woods and, when it is, it is practiced poorly, almost out of tango superstition or tango snobbery, and rarely (or never) in the original spirit. At least, that has been my impression.

 

[Dave Bailey]

"...but I’d say that when a woman in BsAs looks away it only means she doesn’t want to dance at that moment she’s not rejecting the man and he’ll try again later."

I will disagree and tell you why. In talking with milongueros, I learned that once they are rejected, they never invite a woman again. No means no to them. Men whom I have rejected know that I'm not going to change my mind.

To be honest, that's pretty much how it works everywhere I reckon.

Back when I was heavily into salsa (look, I was young, OK?), if I ever got rejected by a woman without a good reason, I'd not ask her again - I'd feel that the onus would be on her to ask me. If she never asked me, fine - it's not like I was short of dance partners.

OK, OK, there are always exceptions, but that was my general rule, and I think that's the same sort of thing most guys did.

 

[Dave Bailey]

Exactly why I hate it. So...sit there without interaction hoping to be asked to dance.

As I understand it, there's nothing to stop you cabaceo-ing a man. Why not?

Failing that, watch the dancers.

Don't get me wrong, I know exactly where you're coming from on this one. But I don't think cabaceo is inherently sexist - it's simply a formal mechanism to ask people to dance.

Or, strike up a friendly conversation with someone to pass the time and you don't get asked.

Well to be fair, I'd also be hesitant about asking someone in conversation to dance - it depends on the situation of course.

Oh, please. It's an unaccepted invitation to dance, not the end of the world.

Rejection's never fun - believe me, you remember the bad rejections for a long time, and they can ruin your evening.

And it's not as if the entire room is watching each invitation-

People see much more than you think. And sometimes, much more than you want. Ahem.

I'm just reminded of what the host of the milonga I frequent has said: the men have to learn to be men. In her opinion, the women have to learn to be graceful about not getting asked to dance (which sucks), the men have to learn to have the stones to be a man and invite a lady. And she's Argentine.

Mmmm. Not sure about that attitude - and I'm not even sure if she's correct. Being charitable, she may simply be phrasing things badly.

 

[Dave Bailey]

It just isn't practiced in my neck of the woods and, when it is, it is practiced poorly, almost out of tango superstition or tango snobbery, and rarely (or never) in the original spirit. At least, that has been my impression.

Sounds right.

I think one of the weaknesses of the cabaceo, when we try to use it elsewhere, is that it only works if:
- Everyone uses it
- It keeps to the spirit (which is a quick and easy way to ask for dances) and not the letter (macho man, wallflower woman, that sort of thing)

 

[Ampster]

... the old cabeceo argument is resurrected.

Here's my take on it. It's nice if it were consistent every where. It's not. Why? Cultural differences. In Bs As, it's been culturally ingrained. Great!

But in other parts of the world, it's not. So whatever works and is respectful will do. In Seattle, it's good to cabeceo because we do it all the time. It's also OK to come up and ask. It works both ways, and you simply have to adapt and make work whichever technique applies to the milongas you go to.

For example in a particular milonga, this guy was cabeceo-ing every lady he wanted to dance with. Looking at the room, it was not a cabeceo crowd, so he looked like he was having neck spasms. In another instance, some guy was going up to every woman and asking and it was a cabeceo crowd/milonga. He didn't get very far.

My point is, watch the room and see which works on whom and apply it. It's part of the game. There are rules, but culture, either societal, or location specific matters. If you can't get a dance, examine your asking technique, and apply what works.

grumbling, stomping, and chest beating in aggravation and bitterness about what should or should not be will get you nowhere

 

[Lui]

Argentine women will have a chat and look up once a while with no effort. I assume its possible for north american women also. Cabezeo is no one way street, but kind of the Argentinian way of emancipation. Nevertheless it is the most elegant way to invite a lady. It works everywhere.

I once was hired as a taxi dancer to a rather noble business woman party near Frankfurt. The theme of the evening was Argentinian nights. There were live music, show acts and a group of five man to get the ladies dancing. I was one of them. There were 250 women with no tango experience at all. Arriving I regretted to have taken the job. The women were one solid reserved wall, lining the totally empty dance floor. I was afraid to go from woman to woman begging for a dance like a trained dog. Finally, I decided to use the cabezeo. I looked one woman straight in the eye. As soon as our gaze meet I turned up my biggest smile and took a few steps toward her. Astonishingly it worked every time, no rejection no discussion.

I never asked verbally since.

 

[bordertangoman]

Argentine women will have a chat and look up once a while with no effort. I assume its possible for north american women also. Cabezeo is no one way street, but kind of the Argentinian way of emancipation. Nevertheless it is the most elegant way to invite a lady. It works everywhere.

I once was hired as a taxi dancer to a rather noble business woman party near Frankfurt. The theme of the evening was Argentinian nights. There were live music, show acts and a group of five man to get the ladies dancing. I was one of them. There were 250 women with no tango experience at all. Arriving I regretted to have taken the job. The women were one solid reserved wall, lining the totally empty dance floor. I was afraid to go from woman to woman begging for a dance like a trained dog. Finally, I decided to use the cabezeo. I looked one woman straight in the eye. As soon as our gaze meet I turned up my biggest smile and took a few steps toward her. Astonishingly it worked every time, no rejection no discussion.

I never asked verbally since.

you must give me some lessons, Svengali

:notworth:

 

[Dave Bailey]

you must give me some lessons, Svengali

:notworth:

Cor, me too.

 

[hbboogie1]

Exactly why I hate it. So...sit there without interaction hoping to be asked to dance. Boring. Lonely. Or, strike up a friendly conversation with someone to pass the time and you don't get asked. Either way, with that sort of an approach to things I might as well stay home. Screw that.

I don't think it's rude, if I'm chatting mildly with someone, for a guy to interrrupt--politely--and ask if I'd be interested in dancing. That's why I'm there. I can say "no," "sorry no," or "sorry I'm in the middle of something can I find you in a bit?" A hand in my face is rude. A man walking up and saying, "Excuse me, I'm sorry to interrupt, but would you like to dance?" is not rude.

And I consider it rude to be looking around the room trying to catch someone's eye, instead of keeping eye contact with the person I'm currently talking to. I look at people when I speak with them; I consider it good manners.

Oh, please. It's an unaccepted invitation to dance, not the end of the world. And it's not as if the entire room is watching each invitation--people are too busy getting on with their own dancing to give much of a fig about what others are doing. (Or, they're busybodies without lives of their own.) Being asked as a second choice doesn't phase me--if I want to dance, I happily accept. So what? There could be a whole host of reasons why the first woman turned him down.

I'm just reminded of what the host of the milonga I frequent has said: the men have to learn to be men. In her opinion, the women have to learn to be graceful about not getting asked to dance (which sucks), the men have to learn to have the stones to be a man and invite a lady. And she's Argentine.

Surely it works there, at least on some level, which means it's got to have its good points. I just don't like it. I think it's a lot of convoluted nonsense that doesn't sit well with my idea of either a good time or etiquette. But, it works there, so great. I'm just glad the men around here will get up and ask. Because personally, I hate it.

Just a side note. My wife is Agentine and she also hates the cabaceo. She does it reluctantly but her girlfriend is the grand master of cabaceo and is always dancing.
I see them talking all the time and eating but always being watchful at the same time for an invitation to dance.
The beauty of it is if you want to only have a conversation with a friend that’s fine. If you want to dance glance across the room and connect.
Isn’t that better than chatting with your friend and being interrupted only to turn the guy down because you’re not finished talking?

The thing about being rejected is a two way street, first He gets rejected by woman # 1 #2 and #3 and you’re #4. This guy is going down the line till someone says yes. There’s a old saying about everything being seen at the milonga. The women know whom they don’t want to dance with so no eye contact. Now Peaches haven’t you ever avoided eye contact with that guy you hate dancing with? Cabaceo!!!!!

 

[Peaches]

Isn’t that better than chatting with your friend and being interrupted only to turn the guy down because you’re not finished talking?

IMO, no. If I genuinely want to dance with the guy, just not at that moment, I make that abundantly clear--facial expression, holding his hand or placing a hand on his arm or some other form of physical contact, promising to find him for the next tanda/making him promise to find me for the next one. Or, I say excuse me to whoever I was talking with, enjoy the tanda, and come back to it. It depends on the conversation and whoever's asking.

The thing about being rejected is a two way street, first He gets rejected by woman # 1 #2 and #3 and you’re #4. This guy is going down the line till someone says yes.

Yeah. So? If I want to dance, I'll dance. Who cares what others before me have said to his invitation. Generally, if the poor guy has been turned down repeatedly and I've noticed, I'm more likely to say yes...assuming he's not one of the few guys on my Do Not Dance With list.

There’s a old saying about everything being seen at the milonga.

Maybe so. People need lives. I'd rather watch the dancing, or be dancing, or chat with someone than engage in the nonverbal equivalent of gossip. What a colossal waste of time and energy. I've been through middle school, and I have no desire to repeat the experience. If others want to, that's up to them, but I'm not getting involved with that crap.

Now Peaches haven’t you ever avoided eye contact with that guy you hate dancing with? Cabaceo!!!!!

Yes, I have. And IME, the guys I really don't want to dance with don't get it anyway. I don't mean the guys who are just so-so, where if I had my druthers I'd dance with someone else. I will dance with those guys, because it's friendly and it beats sitting and they're not bad or injurious...just not my favorites. But the guys I explicitly do not want to dance with (there are a few) are oblivious. No amount of lack of eye contact, no amount of suddenly engrossed conversation, no amount of eating will deter them. That's when it comes down to an outright refusal. It's very rare for me, but I'll do it. So, again, IME there's no value-added.

Now...despite my objections to the cabeceo, I do use it from time to time. Usually it's with someone I know and have something of a standing invitation from, where it's just a matter of the two of us being free at the same time. Then...sure. Or the case when someone is walking towards me obviously to ask, and the question is asked and answered before they arrive. I do use it. I do get it. I just don't like it.

Edit to add:

I see them talking all the time and eating but always being watchful at the same time for an invitation to dance.

Well, another part of the equation I'm sure is that I'm pretty socially inept. (Shocking, I know.) Social interaction of one sort or another is difficult enough for me; trying to combine two or more (god forbid we get into the territory of chatting, eating, and glancing around for an invitation) just isn't gonna work for me.