Milonga Syncopation

[LKSO]

Is it so universal that this mechanism works for all things or is it subject specific?

Yes. Current understanding of the brain is that it is a direct correlate to a computer. Input -> process -> output. Neuroscience is trying to figure out the process part. Psychology has figured out the output part.

So the underlying "mechanism" that is universal for teaching dance is... what exactly?

I don't know. I've only taught some people how to do certain things in dance and can re-explain or demonstrate something to students who don't understand the teacher. I'm not a dance teacher and am not interested in being one. I can only tell you the learning mechanisms from the learner's point of view since my only interest in teaching is learning, not pedagogy.

 

[LKSO]

And that clears up... nothing.

It should clear up the fact that this is a distinction that needs to be understood. This is why my theoretical model approach sounds like it is contradicting the pragmatic approach when they are not.

You completely sidestepped my question about how your "teaching mechanism" theory relates to teaching specific subject matter... and if a theory has no practical application to reality, then you can't make so many statements about it as though it's factual. A theory is only that until it is demonstrated in the real world. Saying it's theoretical rather than pragmatic is a dodge.

Don't make me have to think about how to apply it. I'm not a dance teacher, so I'm not paid to think about this stuff. If you want to learn how to ace an exam, all of them, with perfect marks, I can help you but if you're a dance teacher looking for my help, I want a cut of the increase in profits from your improvement as a teacher.

 

[tangomonkey]

Current understanding of the brain is that it is a direct correlate to a computer. Input -> process -> output.

Simplistic, inaccurate and plain BS.

Neuroscience is trying to figure out the process part. Psychology has figured out the output part.

Well, I've had many talks with my neurologist grad student daughter, who has also studied neuropsychology.... But I am not going there.

 

[tangomonkey]

...I can only tell you the learning mechanisms from the learner's point of view since my only interest in teaching is learning, not pedagogy.

You are confusing learning and teaching. A teacher SHOULD be interested in pedagogy, how to teach. A student should want to learn the craft/skill, not care about how the teacher teaches - only that the method is effective, ie. successfully transmits the craft/skill.

 

[LKSO]

The way I go about it from the student's perspective is this: I figure out what the student needs to do/know. I tell them/show them. They do it. Repeat. This is informed by how the brain functions and how we learn as a result.

I'm not interested in pedagogy in the sense of teaching methodology. It may look like it from an outsiders point of view when I teach, but any resemblance to methodology is incidental.

 

[Zoopsia59]

I'm not a dance teacher,

And that's why I'm not going to debate with you any further on how to do it.

(Nor am I going to take your bait and defend whether I am a good dance teacher, or that you, without having taught dance, could figure out how to make me a better teacher if I paid you for your "expertise"... nice try though)

See you around the forum. This thread has exhausted it's usefulness for me. If you have any tango questions, I'll be happy, in my bumbling inexpert way, to answer. People here say my posts have helped them... must have just been a fluke, though

 

[LKSO]

Simplistic, inaccurate and plain BS.

Neuroscience for Kids! The Brain versus the Computer

"Throughout history, people have compared the brain to different inventions. In the past, the brain has been said to be like a water clock and a telephone switchboard. These days, the favorite invention that the brain is compared to is a computer. Some people use this comparison to say that the computer is better than the brain; some people say that the comparison shows that the brain is better than the computer. Perhaps, it is best to say that the brain is better at doing some jobs and the computer is better at doing other jobs."

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/bvc.html

 

[LKSO]

And that's why I'm not going to debate with you any further on how to do it.

(Nor am I going to take your bait insinuating that I am not a good dance teacher or that you, without having taught dance, could figure out how to make me a better teacher if I paid you for your "expertise"... nice try though)

I didn't know you were a dance teacher. Sorry.

I only teach dance to those who want to improve and learn, but I'm not a dance teacher in the $$-making sense. You're going to have to take my word on this but if I taught someone with no dance experience how to dance tango (or salsa) you'd be able to spot her immediately. She will stick out like a beautiful and graceful thumb. I can usually do this in under 30 minutes, most often just 15. If you saw her, you'd think she'd been dancing for years.

What I do is something very few teachers do: make specific and direct corrections. Also, when they get it right, they are affirmed with a clear "that's good" or "that's right". If they keep it correct, they continue to be praised until they don't need it any longer to remind them. I hold them to the highest standards of form and technique. This is why they achieve it.

One caveat to this is that if they have previous dance experience, it makes it incredibly difficult to achieve anywhere close to the same results. This is because they've learned bad habits over the months or years and it's very difficult to correct in just 30 minutes. This is something I'm trying to figure out how to get their mindset off what they think should be happening and what I'm trying to get them to do. I need to induce a paradigm shift so they aren't thinking (and doing) what they've been accustomed to.

 

[tangomonkey]

LKSO: My impression is that you are a young guy, 20 something. I think you mean well and are passionate about the topics you've written about: music, tango dancing, neuroscience, psychology. But you can't keep claiming things that are very, very unlikely to be true. I mean to say, stop elaborating your accomplishments and knowledge. You come across as a poser. Back off, ask questions more, give strongly worded advice and comments rarely. (I should heed my own advice, but I'm old and crusty ).

On the other hand if you're much older...you get the point.

 

[bordertangoman]

I had been thinking about a comment on the same issue, but you beat me to it. I think there is a danger of making the word syncopation mean quite different things. My understanding of it as a musical term is that it is the process of accenting a note that would normally be unaccented. The resulting rhythms go against a regular pattern of strong & weak beats determined by the time signature. If the syncopated pattern itself is being repeated, then it doesn't alter the underlying stress pattern, so the syncopation becomes predictable, but is still syncopated. In the opening bars of La Trampera, the offbeat stresses only represent syncopation because they don't last long enough to superimpose a new pattern of stress, offset by one beat, relative to the first one. So strong, weak, strong, weak becomes weak, strong, weak, strong etc., but only for as long as the ear still expects the pattern to be the other way around.

What is wonderful about Troilo's piece is that it is so rich in its rhythmic patterns, but in a way that delights (whereas, for comparison, Biagi's Belgica is a nightmare.

I agree, with what you say about syncopation above. I just think the term is used very loosely by dancers, (and I agree about Belgica too; its like I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clue's
pick up song, and most dancers I know arent with a gnat's crotchet, including me.)

 

[Steve Pastor]

Oh, hey, in case anyone is interested, here is the title of the article I mentioned quite some time ago.

Learning to Learn: Lessons from Diverse Traditions in Music and Dance. Terry Miller. College Music Symposium, vol 42 (2002), p 77

 

[bordertangoman]

You are confusing learning and teaching. A teacher SHOULD be interested in pedagogy*, how to teach. A student should want to learn the craft/skill, not care about how the teacher teaches - only that the method is effective, ie. successfully transmits the craft/skill.

*andragogy= teaching adults, just saying..

 

[tangomonkey]

*andragogy= teaching adults, just saying..

Yup. Thanks for making the distinction. I wasn't entirely sure what the differences in teaching method are, so I did a quick wiki read of both terms. As I suspected, andragogy is a much newer term and concept. Malcolm Knowles seems to be an originator and primary academic. The article lists 6 of areas that (might) be more applicable in andragogy than pedagogy; they are motivation based and student directed, compared to pedagogy, teacher directed. The article also says Knowles changed his position on whether andragogy really applied only to adults and came to believe that "pedagogy-andragogy represents a continuum ranging from teacher-directed to student-directed learning and that both approaches are appropriate with children and adults, depending on the situation."

 

[bordertangoman]

Yup. Thanks for making the distinction. I wasn't entirely sure what the differences in teaching method are, so I did a quick wiki read of both terms. As I suspected, andragogy is a much newer term and concept. Malcolm Knowles seems to be an originator and primary academic. The article lists 6 of areas that (might) be more applicable in andragogy than pedagogy; they are motivation based and student directed, compared to pedagogy, teacher directed. The article also says Knowles changed his position on whether andragogy really applied only to adults and came to believe that "pedagogy-andragogy represents a continuum ranging from teacher-directed to student-directed learning and that both approaches are appropriate with children and adults, depending on the situation."

Conditional Learning is more useful with adults, though I have heard of tango teachers who shout at their students