Motivations for studying Tango Nuevo

[Dave Bailey]

From what you've written, it sounds like you're a beginner

Mahdalia's not a beginner, and I think she's pretty good at this dancing stuff personally; so it may be a question of interpretation...

Looking at the queries:

I don't think much "play" happens until after technical issues have been thoroughly sorted out. "Play" mainly happens when people are feeling relaxed and natural with the dance process and each other.

Or, if the woman suddenly gets an attack of the dreaded GrrrrlPowerItis...

For me, close embrace sets up a lot of new technical problems, such as:

*He wants an ocho. How can I disassociate my body enough to carry it out without disrupting the embrace too much and find the space to step without kicking him?

Ochos are tougher in close, definitely. Not sure what the answer is here - "take smaller steps" seems too obvious...

*So he opens out the embrace to give me space - how do I settle back into it smoothly and seamlessly?

I agree with Peaches - the embrace invitation / re-invitation is up to the leader. He needs to pause, get comfortable with the embrace change, then start again.

*How can I find a comfortable place for my left arm that won't ache before the end of the tanda?

Left arm? Are your leaders making you hold it up or something?

*How can I relax my upper body when my back is aching from the effort to match my partners's posture and maintain a connection? Help me out of this strait-jacket!

Ummm. Not sure.

*As I am in a very slight leaning position my core muscles are working far harder to support my posture than they do when I am upright in my own axis as I can't use balance to support my spine as much.

I'd guess, at your stage, you can maybe ease up a bit on the leaning-by-default thing in close embrace, and get a bit more on your axis?

Very little chance of play with all that going on in my head! But I'd like to know what people would suggest for fostering play in close embrace.

Mmm. Dunno. Ask me again in 5-6 years.

 

[bordertangoman]

I don't think much "play" happens until after technical issues have been thoroughly sorted out.

"Play" mainly happens when people are feeling relaxed and natural with the dance process and each other.!)

RE: your first sentence; my experience is that learning improves and some of the technical problems go away when people start to play! Playin produces relaxation and feeling comfortable not necessarily the other away around.

But I'd like to know what people would suggest for fostering play in close embrace..!)

I havent a clue; I enjoy dancing close; but I dont think it is conducive to an interplay between leader and follower; its more you do what I lead, and if you make a step that I am not expecting most likely you could throw us both off balance.

 

[Dave Bailey]

Re: playing in close (!)

I havent a clue; I enjoy dancing close; but I dont think it is conducive to an interplay between leader and follower; its more you do what I lead, and if you make a step that I am not expecting most likely you could throw us both off balance.

Yeah, that was my thought also.

There's a lot of scope for interpretation / play when leading in nuevo. To me, that'd be done in a similar way to other dances; you lead something but leave it up to the follower to determine things like timing / embellishments. Obvious examples are boleos / ochos.

But I don't see how that'd work in close hold - embellishments sure, but timing alterations? I think that could go horribly wrong.

So yes, I guess "greater opportunity to play" could well be a motivation for dancing nuevo. Ye Gods, are we back on topic?!?

 

[opendoor]

Close embrace is not the same!

What is Nuevo for you? Two things make me wonder:

1) As it turned out, for the majority of you, Nuevo seems to be the same as open embrace and viejo (classico) is identified with close embrace TA.

2) Only very few responded to the music as main fact to distinguish the styles, the mood, and the specific movements.

But, for me close embrace and open embrace are nearly the same, bc. either depend on a parallel shoulder frame. The V-hold (Salón embrace) is the counterpart, because it depends on a flexible, and triangular shoulder frame. So, close embrace (in the sense of Apilado) and close embrace (in the sense of Salón) are not the same.

Any comments?

 

[Steve Pastor]

So, close embrace (in the sense of Apilado) and close embrace (in the sense of Salón) are not the same.

That's why I usually add apilado to my description of "close embrace".

 

[opendoor]

Agreed - by the way, have you seen the black stickles, yet?

OD

 

[hbboogie1]

I don't think much "play" happens until after technical issues have been thoroughly sorted out. "Play" mainly happens when people are feeling relaxed and natural with the dance process and each other.

For me, close embrace sets up a lot of new technical problems, such as:

*He wants an ocho. How can I disassociate my body enough to carry it out without disrupting the embrace too much and find the space to step without kicking him?
*So he opens out the embrace to give me space - how do I settle back into it smoothly and seamlessly?
*How can I find a comfortable place for my left arm that won't ache before the end of the tanda?
*How can I relax my upper body when my back is aching from the effort to match my partners's posture and maintain a connection? Help me out of this strait-jacket!
*As I am in a very slight leaning position my core muscles are working far harder to support my posture than they do when I am upright in my own axis as I can't use balance to support my spine as much.
*Am I giving too little/ too much weight to suit him?
*Is my R arm relaxed enough for him or too floppy?
*How can I find time to respond fully to the music when my attention is taken up with maintaining the connection?

Very little chance of play with all that going on in my head! But I'd like to know what people would suggest for fostering play in close embrace.

I think dancing in a nuevo style would free me from many of these preoccupations, although its slowness is a huge challenge to balance and weight-transfer management. (But I don't mind those!)

I think everyone’s concept of open and closed embrace is different. Close embrace is not necessarily what you see in the crowded milongas of BsAs or in your local milongas with the woman hanging all over the man arm draped down his back. The concept of salon as I was taught is a style that moves from closed embrace to open and back. A lot of your questions can be answered by simply watching a few videos on YT of salon dancers. They move smoothly from open to closed keeping the balance and axis, the woman’s hand moves from his shoulder to his forearm in such a subtle way you hardly notice. In this style of close embrace you can be lead to do pretty much any figure with ease if you have a skilled leader.
I have personally formed a strong opinion about learning this style of tango and here is my reasoning.
If you only learn close embrace you will have a hard time transitioning to open. The same holds true with open embrace or Nuevo you’ll find it difficult to dance closed. If you learn salon first and I mean learn it well you will be able to travel the world and dance any style of tango from the crowded milongas of BsAs to the open styles of nuevo.

Actually you can watch the 2009 BsAs competition that just ended. One of the rules is that the salon competition is danced entirely in a close embrace. You will not see anyone off balance and everyone is “playing” with ease.

 

[bordertangoman]

I t
Actually you can watch the 2009 BsAs competition that just ended. One of the rules is that the salon competition is danced entirely in a close embrace. You will not see anyone off balance and everyone is “playing” with ease.

dont agree with that at all, No-one is doing anything that resembles playing. It all looks deadly serious; its a competition after all.

 

[hbboogie1]

dont agree with that at all, No-one is doing anything that resembles playing. It all looks deadly serious; its a competition after all.

You and I seem to have a difference of opinion as to what “playing” is. How about this …everyone seems to be dancing in a manner as to not disturb others as they move in the same direction pausing occasionally to execute a stationary figure before returning to smoothly walking in the line of dance. The part where they stop to do a little figure is generally thought of as “playing” as opposed to just walking.
Out of curiosity I would like to hear you’re definition of playing.

 

[Dave Bailey]

You and I seem to have a difference of opinion as to what “playing” is.

In this context, I think "playing" means "interpretation, improvisation and general-messing-around-to-the-music movements".

That's how I understood it anyway.

 

[Steve Pastor]

I think "playing" means "interpretation, improvisation and general-messing-around-to-the-music movements".

And for me it most often involves some sort of interaction with your partner which may or may not evoke a "playful" response.

 

[Peaches]

everyone seems to be dancing in a manner as to not disturb others as they move in the same direction pausing occasionally to execute a stationary figure before returning to smoothly walking in the line of dance.

To me, this is just simple dancing, and the bare minimum of what people on the floor at a milonga are doing. Or, perhaps, should be doing. Fine if it's done well but, unfortunately, often is not.

In this context, I think "playing" means "interpretation, improvisation and general-messing-around-to-the-music movements".

I'd consider this a step up from the basics of just walking about. Well, a few steps up, really, since it involves musicality. Yay, musicality! But I don't know that I'd consider it playful, necessarily.

And for me it most often involves some sort of interaction with your partner which may or may not evoke a "playful" response.

This comes the closest to what I tend to think of as playful.

Definitely in my definition is some idea of a sense of humor on both sides, and a certain levity in the approach to musical interpretation. Vague, I know. But, like the infamous quote, it's sort of something I know when I see it. Or feel it, particularly. A certain teasing in the interaction in how it's lead or followed, a bit of experimentation. Subtle (or not so subtle) jokes between partners, playing off the music.

 

[bordertangoman]

And for me it most often involves some sort of interaction with your partner which may or may not evoke a "playful" response.

I agree with this;

more examples here http://users.telenet.be/Tango-E-Vita/tango/humor.htm

 

[hbboogie1]

I agree with this;

more examples here http://users.telenet.be/Tango-E-Vita/tango/humor.htm

Originally Posted by Madahlia
I don't think much "play" happens until after technical issues have been thoroughly sorted out. "Play" mainly happens when people are feeling relaxed and natural with the dance process and each other.

Originally Posted by Steve Pastor
And for me it most often involves some sort of interaction with your partner which may or may not evoke a "playful" response.

Your video example of “play” is not a good example of social tango playfulness it’s more like what I’d expect to see at a circus. They are performing and having fun but it’s not social dancing.
Are you saying this is an example of how you play while social dancing?

 

[Ampster]

Originally Posted by Madahlia
I don't think much "play" happens until after technical issues have been thoroughly sorted out. "Play" mainly happens when people are feeling relaxed and natural with the dance process and each other.

Originally Posted by Steve Pastor
And for me it most often involves some sort of interaction with your partner which may or may not evoke a "playful" response.

Your video example of “play” is not a good example of social tango playfulness it’s more like what I’d expect to see at a circus. They are performing and having fun but it’s not social dancing.
Are you saying this is an example of how you play while social dancing?

hb:

Your example of "play" was also not in the context of social dancing. (See below)

Actually you can watch the 2009 BsAs competition that just ended. One of the rules is that the salon competition is danced entirely in a close embrace. You will not see anyone off balance and everyone is “playing” with ease.