ballroomdancertoo
Well-Known Member
Anyone knows what muscle(s) hold the arms up in standard position. Think of trying to build strength in them.
muscle ID
- Thread starter ballroomdancertoo
- Start date
dlliba10
Forum Master
At least they should be the ones that control it. For my entire first year I used my triceps / biceps for lack of awareness of what I should have been using. I was in pain for that entire first year.
Gary C
New Member
Hi!
I presume that your primary question is which muscles hold the arms up (i.e. giving you the horizontal line from elbow to elbow).
Given that a muscle can only contract and relax (i.e. it cannot actively lengthen), a muscle that lifts or holds up the arm must by definition act above the joint around which the movement takes place (in this case the shoulder joint).
The specific action that places the arms in position is called abduction, i.e. moving the arms away from the body. The two muscles that take part in this action are the deltoid muscle, which drapes over the top of the shoulder, and in part the supraspinatus muscle, which lies just above the horizontal bony ridge of the scapula (shoulder blade). The supraspinatus muscle is only involved in the first 10-30 degrees of abduction - the rest of the movement uses the deltoid muscle.
wikipedia /wiki/Supraspinatus_muscle
The ballroom hold is actually more complex than this as the arms are rotated at different angles for right and left as well as for man and lady. Also the elbows and wrists are held at certain angles. This does involve other muscles, including in part the latissimus dorsi. When you look at the possible actions of the latissimus dorsi muscle (below), it can move the arm back from the shoulder (extension), pull it back down to your side (adduction) and rotate the arm inwards. It is this rotation that is part of the normal ballroom hold.
wikipedia /wiki/Latissimus_dorsi_muscle
Another important muscle to be aware of is the trapezius muscle, which is used to draw the shoulder blades together (middle segment) and pull the shoulder blades down (lower segment). These actions help to create the classic shoulders-down-flat-back of ballroom dancing. This then helps to stablise the shoulder girdle and hence the arm position.
wikipedia /wiki/Trapezius_muscle
A good exercise to build strength in all the right muscles is literally to hold weights in your proper ballroom hold - then you don't need to worry about which muscles you are using. If you watch yourself in the mirror then you can check that you are not cheating by twisting your body or raising your shoulders. Try it first with small weights (e.g. 1kg) before moving up to 2 or 3kg. Try and hold your frame for the length of a competition round without it breaking down. Once you can do that, increase the weight or repeat it several times in a row.
Hope that's helpful
I presume that your primary question is which muscles hold the arms up (i.e. giving you the horizontal line from elbow to elbow).
Given that a muscle can only contract and relax (i.e. it cannot actively lengthen), a muscle that lifts or holds up the arm must by definition act above the joint around which the movement takes place (in this case the shoulder joint).
The specific action that places the arms in position is called abduction, i.e. moving the arms away from the body. The two muscles that take part in this action are the deltoid muscle, which drapes over the top of the shoulder, and in part the supraspinatus muscle, which lies just above the horizontal bony ridge of the scapula (shoulder blade). The supraspinatus muscle is only involved in the first 10-30 degrees of abduction - the rest of the movement uses the deltoid muscle.
wikipedia /wiki/Supraspinatus_muscle
The ballroom hold is actually more complex than this as the arms are rotated at different angles for right and left as well as for man and lady. Also the elbows and wrists are held at certain angles. This does involve other muscles, including in part the latissimus dorsi. When you look at the possible actions of the latissimus dorsi muscle (below), it can move the arm back from the shoulder (extension), pull it back down to your side (adduction) and rotate the arm inwards. It is this rotation that is part of the normal ballroom hold.
wikipedia /wiki/Latissimus_dorsi_muscle
Another important muscle to be aware of is the trapezius muscle, which is used to draw the shoulder blades together (middle segment) and pull the shoulder blades down (lower segment). These actions help to create the classic shoulders-down-flat-back of ballroom dancing. This then helps to stablise the shoulder girdle and hence the arm position.
wikipedia /wiki/Trapezius_muscle
A good exercise to build strength in all the right muscles is literally to hold weights in your proper ballroom hold - then you don't need to worry about which muscles you are using. If you watch yourself in the mirror then you can check that you are not cheating by twisting your body or raising your shoulders. Try it first with small weights (e.g. 1kg) before moving up to 2 or 3kg. Try and hold your frame for the length of a competition round without it breaking down. Once you can do that, increase the weight or repeat it several times in a row.
Hope that's helpful
ballroomdancertoo
Well-Known Member
fantastic thanks very very much for that detailed explanation. will start with weights and be careful not to have that shorten neck look.!
Joe
Forum Master
Newp. GaryC nailed it.
Neakor nailed the muscles that keep your shoulders down, not your arms up.
Why stop at mere strength for a specific isometric hold? Go all the way. Pull-ups, push-ups, hand-stand push-ups, hanging leg lifts, squats, bridges: they're like magic. (Look up "Convict Conditioning" by Paul Wade. A great book with progressions for all the above mentioned moves.) It's kind of fun warming-up before a social/lesson and people start staring at you when doing pistols (one-legged squats.)
...Alternatively, instead of weights for the hold, you could social dance more... Just sayin'.
...Alternatively, instead of weights for the hold, you could social dance more... Just sayin'.
randomaeiou
Member
what about subscapularis and serratus anterior?
serratus anterior for connection, subscapularis for that "round" frame/shape (aka not putting your right, and less often left, shoulder in your partner's face). serratus anterior activation is frequently referred to as "opening the back of your chest/ribcage", and subscapularis activation is referred to as "opening the front (whilst simultaneously opening the back) of your ribcage".
supraspinatus is irrelevant to relatively advanced dancers who are able to hold their frame - its mechanical effect at 90 degrees of shoulder abduction are miniscule. in that situation, the medial fibres of deltoid are most relevant. anterior fibres of deltoid are relevant to frame shape, but not so much to holding the shoulder in abduction/"up".
that said, relatively novice dancers who drop frame frequently will require supraspinatus strength to be able to re-lift the frame when moving, or even to hold the frame "up" at 30-45 degrees of abduction.
most dancers ignore scapulohumeral rhythm when considering shoulder position - the fact of the matter is that the shoulder joint capsule actually can change its facing a fair amount depending on how much the scapula rotates on the ribcage.
This is why dancers are often told to "close their backs", and yet more advanced students are simultaneously told to "open their back (as well as front) ribcage". "Closing back" = rhomboids and trapezius engagement to prevent scapula from rotating out and allowing shoulders to rise - it also prevents proper serratus anterior engagement. "Opening back" = serratus anterior engagement for solid arm connection. "Opening front" = subscapularis engagement to create a "round"/"spacious" frame. i.e. ideal situation involves opening front, and BOTH opening AND closing back. Schizophrenic, heh? :shock::raisebro:
for the skinnier ballroom ladies wearing low-backed dresses (i.e. visible scapulae), how flat their scapulae are against the ribcage on their back is a pretty good indication/hint of the connection they have through each of their arms, due to the action of serratus anterior. Connection = connecting the two torsos to transmit mutual motion via the frame/arms, NOT (just) pressure through the arms/hands.
serratus anterior for connection, subscapularis for that "round" frame/shape (aka not putting your right, and less often left, shoulder in your partner's face). serratus anterior activation is frequently referred to as "opening the back of your chest/ribcage", and subscapularis activation is referred to as "opening the front (whilst simultaneously opening the back) of your ribcage".
supraspinatus is irrelevant to relatively advanced dancers who are able to hold their frame - its mechanical effect at 90 degrees of shoulder abduction are miniscule. in that situation, the medial fibres of deltoid are most relevant. anterior fibres of deltoid are relevant to frame shape, but not so much to holding the shoulder in abduction/"up".
that said, relatively novice dancers who drop frame frequently will require supraspinatus strength to be able to re-lift the frame when moving, or even to hold the frame "up" at 30-45 degrees of abduction.
most dancers ignore scapulohumeral rhythm when considering shoulder position - the fact of the matter is that the shoulder joint capsule actually can change its facing a fair amount depending on how much the scapula rotates on the ribcage.
This is why dancers are often told to "close their backs", and yet more advanced students are simultaneously told to "open their back (as well as front) ribcage". "Closing back" = rhomboids and trapezius engagement to prevent scapula from rotating out and allowing shoulders to rise - it also prevents proper serratus anterior engagement. "Opening back" = serratus anterior engagement for solid arm connection. "Opening front" = subscapularis engagement to create a "round"/"spacious" frame. i.e. ideal situation involves opening front, and BOTH opening AND closing back. Schizophrenic, heh? :shock::raisebro:
for the skinnier ballroom ladies wearing low-backed dresses (i.e. visible scapulae), how flat their scapulae are against the ribcage on their back is a pretty good indication/hint of the connection they have through each of their arms, due to the action of serratus anterior. Connection = connecting the two torsos to transmit mutual motion via the frame/arms, NOT (just) pressure through the arms/hands.
chomsky
Well-Known Member
you are such a poet!
little_mouse
Member
Gosh, I wish there were visuals for this, I want to learn how to understand this but I'm lost in the technical/medical jargon....