My Incompetence

Mladenac said:
toes 5 til 2 (on analog clock)
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This would mean that your right foot is more turned out that your left, wouldn't it?

Do you mean 5 til 2 based on the line of dance (being at 12 and 6) or 5 til 2 based on the person's own body alignment?

If the latter and someone is trying to dance a true milonguero style, I can't imagine that would be helpful. I think it would be actually detrimental to aim for that lack of symmetry.

As for a V embrace or some other styles, I still question whether this is useful. It's certainly not something I've EVER heard nor would I want a beginner to focus on that sort of thing so exactly. It's hard enough to get them to stop looking at their feet. You start talking about their foot position that specifically, they're never going to look up!

If you want them to angle themselves along the line of dance (not have one foot turned out more than the other) I think there are better ways to instruct this angle than giving them foot positions, not only because of the looking down thing, but because foot positions don't always create a corresponding body position.. I think it would be better to talk about how their whole body is situated along the LOD, The way they step can play a role, but it is not the only piece of the puzzle. Giving foot positions without context of body positions can be tricky
 
Sorry not to have replied sooner, had problems with my router…

Thanks everyone for the helpful advice. The class consisted of various drills – lots of walking/pausing on different beats, proper stepping and weight transfer, balance, ochos (emphasizing the disassociation required), all the time listening to the music and moving in time to it. The teacher commented on how well I kept up during the exercises, and perhaps she wanted to see if my technical abilities translated to dancing skills. Obviously they don’t. Being a musician, I know technique must always be practiced and I know when playing music to forget about the technical aspects and just interpret the music in real time. I think not being able to do that while dancing is my problem – besides being put on the spot and getting stage fright, even though we were not performing for anyone.

I certainly need to dance with other people and watch good dancers. It will happen over time…
 
tangomonkey said:
...I certainly need to dance with other people and watch good dancers. It will happen over time…
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I think your biggest, and maybe only, problem is having danced only with your wife previously. She is probably so familiar with all your moves that you may not have to lead them at all. She may be making up for a faulty lead on your part.

I suggest that you begin to dance with lots of other women, and study the result of whatever leads you give them. If they are not getting your lead, lead it again, but do it more clearly, more precisely, better. You might tell them that you are working on your lead, and ask them for some feedback.
 
@Zoopsia

I made a mistake. I meant 10 till 2. So in this stage it easier to transfer the weight and be stable.
But since he has a good teacher it would be a problem. :cool:
 
tangomonkey said:
my technical abilities translated to dancing skills. Obviously they don’t. Being a musician, I know technique must always be practiced and I know when playing music to forget about the technical aspects and just interpret the music in real time. I think not being able to do that while dancing is my problem
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YET.

Not able to do it while dancing, YET.

If it's any consolation, I've heard more than one dance teacher comment that musicians sometimes have more trouble in some ways than non-musicians. My friends and I (dancing friends and friends who are musicians) have had several conversations about why this might be so, without reaching any kind of concrete conclusion.

I remember servng as Production Stage Manager for a musical years ago that was a joint production of the local ballet company and the local opera company.... getting the people from a music background dancing was a challenge and I discovered that many of the dancers counted the music differently from the musicians. Rehearsing them together on the group numbers was an interesting experience. But it was clear that those with knowledge of music theory related to the music very differently from those without actual music training.

There's also a huge difference between getting your hands/ arms to do something rhythmic and getting your feet or whole body doing it. I have a drummer friend whose hands are always tapping out rhythms at his desk. Put a pencil in his hand, and he starts drumming. (good thing he uses a computer most of the time!) He's agile, athletic and can drum extremely complex rhythms. Can't dance his way out of a paper bag. Seriously. Simply Can Not Dance.
 
Firstly, welcome T-monkey. You have received some great advice here... plenty to ponder w/o an add from me.

Secondly, to OD...
opendoor said:
Totally disagree ! The beat measure is a rough frame, and within, besides, outside, and even against this frame you are free to fill the space with your own music ...
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I believe you are contesting a moot point. IMO, the poster is saying exactly what you iterated... that one can not dance to the didactic beats of a metronome, but should attempt to dance in the ways that you so correctly named.
 
tangomonkey said:
My question is, how do I proceed from here?
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You're just starting. You don't have six months of tango, you have three months of taking bad habits with a bad teacher, and then three months with better teachers. If you had started with your present teachers then yes you would have three months of tango. But you did not start from scratch, you started with all the bad habits you got from your first teachers. This bad teachers gave you a minus-three months level, that is, after leaving their class you just need three months to recover, and reach the level of a fresh beginner.

Then a comes a visiting teacher and you dance with her and it's terrible. But hey what did you expect? Your only assets come from your being a musician and going to the gym. As for your tango training you are at ground zero. For an average leader it would take one year and an half before he can manage such a situation (dancing with an unknown advanced follower), for you it will be two years all in all.
 
tangomonkey said:
My wife and I are beginners (6 months). Not knowing anything about AT, we started with a nearby studio. We learned sequences in open embrace, with very little talk about technique. Everyone just mechanically performed a particular series of steps with no instruction about leading or following them. Even worse, every single sequence was "borrowed" from Dario's Tango Guide, all of which all starts with the basic 8. Once I found that out we left and found a couple who focus on technique and fundamentals. That was about three months ago.

Which leads me to me to the reason for this post. Last week we attended a small class with a guest teacher, six of us in all and I was the only male. The focus was on technique - walking, pivots and disassociation. Having spent hours per week at the gym for the past few years doing balance and core exercises, the physical demands are easy for me (the walk still needs work, but probably always will). And I’m a musician, so timing the movements is not a problem. After the class the instructor talked with me for a while and was surprised I had only been “dancing” AT for 6 months. She asked me if I wanted to dance with her. My wife and I have been to several milongas but have only danced with each other. I was hesitant (to say the least!) but of course accepted. Well, it was a disaster. I extended my hand and we embraced. That was the good part. I listened to the music – something by D’Arienzo –and it just sounded “off”. My fault entirely. I was overcome by stage fright, performance anxiety, whatever….it was not fun. And having done the basic 8 so many times as an absolute beginner, it crept in whenever nothing else came to mind – which was often. Despite words of encouragement afterwards from her I knew our dance was awful for us both. I felt as though I had never had a lesson ever.

My question is, how do I proceed from here?
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its clear that the teacher though you had some skills even if they have emerged form being a musician and going to the gym.

Performance anxiety is nothing to worry about as a social dancer. lots of people are nervous at the beginning of the evening, including me. the best thing is to get on the dance floor and ride it out; I do this with some ladies too I can feel the tension; and even sometimes shaking with nerves and I will dance them through it until they start to relax.

I would say this teacher is giving you the right things; so stick with it.
 
Angel HI is absolutely right – I have received a lot of good advice and supportive comments from the posters here. Thanks!

Yes, I have lots of bad habits to unlearn. Sequences I practiced over and over again need to be broken down to their individual steps and danced in different ways. And my lead needs lots of work, assuming I know what to lead at any given time…
Zoopsia59: I think an important difference between non-musicians and musicians learning to dance is that musicians are used to expressing or interpreting the music directly while dancers express the music they hear. A musician’s job is to take the notes on the page and create emotional content. A dancer hears this in the music and moves his/her body accordingly. Musicians have not (in general) been trained to respond to music by moving, dancing. I can hear what’s happening in a tango piece but have not developed (YET) a way to physically respond, within the tango dance framework. It is as though I hear the music and can enjoy it, but my body is tone-deaf.

PS. Nice tag line AndaBien: "The only reason for mastering technique is to make sure the body does not stand in the way of the soul's expression."
 
tangomonkey said:
Angel HI is absolutely right – I have received a lot of good advice and supportive comments from the posters here. Thanks!

Yes, I have lots of bad habits to unlearn. Sequences I practiced over and over again need to be broken down to their individual steps and danced in different ways. And my lead needs lots of work, assuming I know what to lead at any given time…
Zoopsia59: I think an important difference between non-musicians and musicians learning to dance is that musicians are used to expressing or interpreting the music directly while dancers express the music they hear. A musician’s job is to take the notes on the page and create emotional content. A dancer hears this in the music and moves his/her body accordingly. Musicians have not (in general) been trained to respond to music by moving, dancing. I can hear what’s happening in a tango piece but have not developed (YET) a way to physically respond, within the tango dance framework. It is as though I hear the music and can enjoy it, but my body is tone-deaf.

PS. Nice tag line AndaBien: "The only reason for mastering technique is to make sure the body does not stand in the way of the soul's expression."
Click to expand...

AS a musician you could regard the sequences as scales.....notes which can be reassembled in a different order, and to played at diffrent tempos, cadences and so forth.

so even this is not lost....
 
tangomonkey said:
My wife and I are beginners (6 months). Not knowing anything about AT, we started with a nearby studio. We learned sequences in open embrace, with very little talk about technique. Everyone just mechanically performed a particular series of steps with no instruction about leading or following them. Even worse, every single sequence was "borrowed" from Dario's Tango Guide, all of which all starts with the basic 8. Once I found that out we left and found a couple who focus on technique and fundamentals. That was about three months ago.

Which leads me to me to the reason for this post. Last week we attended a small class with a guest teacher, six of us in all and I was the only male. The focus was on technique - walking, pivots and disassociation. Having spent hours per week at the gym for the past few years doing balance and core exercises, the physical demands are easy for me (the walk still needs work, but probably always will). And I’m a musician, so timing the movements is not a problem. After the class the instructor talked with me for a while and was surprised I had only been “dancing” AT for 6 months. She asked me if I wanted to dance with her. My wife and I have been to several milongas but have only danced with each other. I was hesitant (to say the least!) but of course accepted. Well, it was a disaster. I extended my hand and we embraced. That was the good part. I listened to the music – something by D’Arienzo –and it just sounded “off”. My fault entirely. I was overcome by stage fright, performance anxiety, whatever….it was not fun. And having done the basic 8 so many times as an absolute beginner, it crept in whenever nothing else came to mind – which was often. Despite words of encouragement afterwards from her I knew our dance was awful for us both. I felt as though I had never had a lesson ever.

My question is, how do I proceed from here?
Click to expand...

Welcome to DF tangomonkey!

Your question (my bold and underline) is a very broad question, with a large answer. Allow me to help by (trying) to answer you this way. I will refer you to different articles in my blog, "AmpsterTango." I wrote it for the purpose of (maybe) helping people to avoid the mistakes I've made, hopefully helping leads to advance faster in their Argentine Tango journey.

Please refer to the following articles:

This was where I was when I was in your predicament: "The first time I danced with a "Stranger" (click here)

Where do you go from here? Here are some of my topics on:


I hope these tidbits of info will help.
 
tangomonkey said:
I think an important difference between non-musicians and musicians learning to dance is that musicians are used to expressing or interpreting the music directly while dancers express the music they hear. A musician’s job is to take the notes on the page and create emotional content. A dancer hears this in the music and moves his/her body accordingly. Musicians have not (in general) been trained to respond to music by moving, dancing. I can hear what’s happening in a tango piece but have not developed (YET) a way to physically respond, within the tango dance framework. It is as though I hear the music and can enjoy it, but my body is tone-deaf.
Click to expand...
As someone who also had a music background before getting into tango, I think it will help you a lot, eventually. However for me, in the beginning, I danced worse to songs I really liked, as good songs evoke all kinds of feelings, that I wanted (and tried) to express, but my skills weren't where they needed to be, to enable this.

If you stick with it though, it will come (just not quite as quickly as you'd like it to).
 
dchester said:
...in the beginning, I danced worse to songs I really liked, as good songs evoke all kinds of feelings, that I wanted (and tried) to express, but my skills weren't where they needed to be, to enable this.
Click to expand...

Sounds very familiar...I enjoy listening to Pugliese, but I would not attempt dancing to him.



Thanks Ampster. I look forward to reading your blogs.
 
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