My Incompetence

[Zoopsia59]

Zoopsia59: I think an important difference between non-musicians and musicians learning to dance is that musicians are used to expressing or interpreting the music directly while dancers express the music they hear. A musician’s job is to take the notes on the page and create emotional content. A dancer hears this in the music and moves his/her body accordingly. Musicians have not (in general) been trained to respond to music by moving, dancing. I can hear what’s happening in a tango piece but have not developed (YET) a way to physically respond, within the tango dance framework. It is as though I hear the music and can enjoy it, but my body is tone-deaf.

I'm not so sure your body is any more tone deaf than the average person. However, the average person who takes a dance class is often NOT the "average person". They are more likely to have natural dance ability than the "average person". That's why they gravitate towards dance classes in the first place.

Sure, not EVERYONE who goes to social dance classes is naturally skilled or gifted, but the percentage of people who are would obviously be greater in a dance class than the general population. I'm not naturally gifted at math (in fact, I totally suck at math) so I'm not all that motivated to take math classes or develop hobbies that require advanced mathematics skills.

I think that musicians have high expectations of themselves because they assume (perhaps subconsciously) that knowledge/talent at music will translate into ability of movement to music.

But they really are two very different things, and an unrealistic expectation of oneself actually impedes progress.. maybe that's why musicians seem to struggle disproportionately in dance classes? (IME)

 

[tangomonkey]

...I think that musicians have high expectations of themselves because they assume (perhaps subconsciously) that knowledge/talent at music will translate into ability of movement to music.

I'm sure I thought so at the start but that quickly disappeared after the first few lessons.

...But they really are two very different things, and an unrealistic expectation of oneself actually impedes progress.. maybe that's why musicians seem to struggle disproportionately in dance classes? (IME)

That's for sure.

There are advantages and disadvantages being a musician. One advantage is I hear in detail what is happening in the music – the beat, melodic phrasing, dynamics, rhythmic changes, polyphony, harmonic progression, etc… That’s also a disadvantage. I shouldn’t attempt to respond to everything I hear, trying to apply a certain ingrained sequence appropriately (is that even possible?), but to learn to dance to the general flow of the music, pausing and moving as that flow reveals itself to me (IMHO).

A problem I have is over-analysis. I naturally like complicated, complex music and some of my favourite music classes (back in the day…) were in theory and analysis. Ampster has a nice blog post on simplicity (thanks Ampster!); narrowing down the choices, learning to do a few things (and lead) them well and mix them up when dancing. Right now I have too many sequences in my head and muscle memory. I almost always side step left and step forward outside partner, rather than just step forward (wretched basic 8!).

Simplifying should help,yes?

 

[Ampster]

A problem I have is over-analysis. I naturally like complicated, complex music and some of my favourite music classes (back in the day…) were in theory and analysis. Ampster has a nice blog post on simplicity (thanks Ampster!); narrowing down the choices, learning to do a few things (and lead) them well and mix them up when dancing. Right now I have too many sequences in my head and muscle memory. I almost always side step left and step forward outside partner, rather than just step forward (wretched basic 8!).

Simplifying should help,yes?

tangomonkey, You are most welcome. I hope you find it of value.

Re: As for simplicity and your basic 8... Look at it this way. Look at the basic 8, and break it down. You now have a "Stepping back portion," a "walking portion," a side "stepping portion," and a "closing portion." You now have four (4) items in your tango "vocabulary." Flip-flop, mix these around and re-string them together. Then, apply/develop your musicality around them. You now have enough for a decent tanda. This may perhaps be a good starting point for you?


Remember this? --> The combination lock

 

[tangomonkey]

tangomonkey, You are most welcome. I hope you find it of value.

Re: As for simplicity and your basic 8... Look at it this way. Look at the basic 8, and break it down. You now have a "Stepping back portion," a "walking portion," a side "stepping portion," and a "closing portion." You now have four (4) items in your tango "vocabulary." Flip-flop, mix these around and re-string them together. Then, apply/develop your musicality around them. You now have enough for a decent tanda. This may perhaps be a good starting point for you?


Remember this? --> "The combination lock" /

Yes, that was the post I was thinking of. “A Journey Through My Incompetence” was excellent too. You identify problems you were having and ways to fix them - very analytical . And the "4 Stages of Dance" was an interesting read, applying Maslow's learning model to dancing. In stage 2 - Conscious Incompetence - no doubt about it

I guess the basic 8 is used because there so many components. Separating them out (and doing the same for other sequences/patterns) and concentrating on a few, as you suggest, I think that's a good way to move ahead from here - and dance with other followers.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Right now I have too many sequences in my head and muscle memory. I almost always side step left and step forward outside partner, rather than just step forward

And whenever I try to play my keyboard with the guys at the office who have their guitars, at the first memeory lapse of the right hand part, I can only play the bass line.
There are ways to reprogram myself, I know, but they all involve...lots of practice!

Simple walking, side steps and "rock steps" were the first steps I learned. Maybe force yourslef to do only those every now and then.

And, belated hello.

 

[tangomonkey]

And whenever I try to play my keyboard with the guys at the office who have their guitars, at the first memeory lapse of the right hand part, I can only play the bass line.

Interesting that the left hand can continue. I play piano (badly, not my main instrument) and when I get lost everything stops or I hunt and peck at the keyboard like a chicken, trying to get back into it.


Having a West Coast conversation here (Seattle and the two Vancouvers)...others are weclome!

 

[dchester]

There are advantages and disadvantages being a musician. One advantage is I hear in detail what is happening in the music – the beat, melodic phrasing, dynamics, rhythmic changes, polyphony, harmonic progression, etc… That’s also a disadvantage. I shouldn’t attempt to respond to everything I hear, trying to apply a certain ingrained sequence appropriately (is that even possible?), but to learn to dance to the general flow of the music, pausing and moving as that flow reveals itself to me (IMHO).

A problem I have is over-analysis. I naturally like complicated, complex music and some of my favourite music classes (back in the day…) were in theory and analysis. Ampster has a nice blog post on simplicity (thanks Ampster!); narrowing down the choices, learning to do a few things (and lead) them well and mix them up when dancing. Right now I have too many sequences in my head and muscle memory. I almost always side step left and step forward outside partner, rather than just step forward (wretched basic 8!).

Simplifying should help,yes?

I firmly believe my music background helped me quite a bit, once I reached some basic competence in some of my steps, and of course in leading the followers steps.

One of the key things is getting good enough at your own steps, so you don't have to waste time thinking about them. Then you can focus more on what you want the follower to do, and of course how to lead it. Also, you have to deal with floor craft issues. For me, only after I could do all of this without needed 100% of my concentration, could the real art begin (the musicality). At this point is where your musicality can shine, and jump you ahead of some others (assuming you're not trying to step to every single beat).

You'll have no problems with moving back and forth from taking you cues for steps from the beat, the bass, the melody, or any of the accompaniment, and come up with some creative step rhythms, while others will be stuck with alternating from slow slow quick-quick slow to slow slow slow pause.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Variations of basic blues progressions....
used in both "Blue Suede Shoes" and "Boot Scootin' Boogie".
I always challenge myself to "do it on the other side" in AT, too.
Haven't tried to play any tango yet, but I have enough sheet music to probably last the rest of my life!
Funny how many "syncopations" turn up in "simple" music.
Still too much daylight this time of year and a house to take care of, etc to go there.
Plan to get back to AT, too, after a vacation.

Hey, carry on with dance discussion, although I have to note that what we have here is the flip side of musician learning to dance. (I THINK I qualify as a "Dancer". Some folks even agree with that.)

 

[tangomonkey]

One of the key things is getting good enough at your own steps, so you don't have to waste time thinking about them. Then you can focus more on what you want the follower to do, and of course how to lead it. Also, you have to deal with floor craft issues. For me, only after I could do all of this without needed 100% of my concentration, could the real art begin (the musicality). At this point is where your musicality can shine, and jump you ahead of some others (assuming you're not trying to step to every single beat).

Agreed for sure, responding by feeling not thinking steps is what to aim for.

You'll have no problems with moving back and forth from taking you cues for steps from the beat, the bass, the melody, or any of the accompaniment, and come up with some creative step rhythms, while others will be stuck with alternating from slow slow quick-quick slow to slow slow slow pause.

That sounds nice. You are fortunate to be in such a place. Must have taken a a lot of practice and a lot dancing. How long did it take you to arrive there?

 

[Zoopsia59]

One of the key things is getting good enough at your own steps, so you don't have to waste time thinking about them. Then you can focus more on what you want the follower to do, and of course how to lead it. Also, you have to deal with floor craft issues. For me, only after I could do all of this without needed 100% of my concentration, could the real art begin

I would like to recommend taking DC's advice one step further... be aware starting TODAY, even with the basic steps you are doing, what the follower's response is supposed to be. IMO, one fo the hardest things about becoming "fluent" in leading is "thinking in the foreign language"... ie: the follower's role.

Too often leaders learn their part in a class and remain blissfully unaware of what the follower is supposed to do in response. They trust that she will "do her steps" as she was taught, and that it will take care of itself.

However, you will never be able to fluidly navigate in a crowd until you stop thinking about YOUR steps and start thinking primarily about what you want the follower to do and then YOU respond to that thought automatically. In that way, it's backwards from what might seem more intuitive... you won't be thinking about your step and hope she responds with whatever is correct for her.. you will thnk about whatever you want her to go and then YOU will respond by doing what is correct for her!

For instance, if someone is about to crash into you, you don't want to be taking time to think about what step you want to do... you want your brain to respond "Backstepper! Need to get her out of the way to my left!" and your body to respond to that with "Initiating CCW molinete sequence, Captain!".

Or, "Lane changer! Protect female at all costs!" and your body does ocho cortado to your right.

If you don't know where you want her to go, or where she WILL go based on your lead, you will never know what to lead in order to navigate.. you'll only know what to lead in order to use the music, but as though you were alone on the dance floor.

Now this is not a skill you will have early on. But you will get yourself there sooner if you take the time to understand what the follower's part is for each thing you learn to lead. Don't just learn some steps and hope she will do her 'part'... whatever her part is... you aren't totally sure, but hopefully SHE knows...

YOU need to know. Otherwise you won't know know what the point is to anything you're doing and you won't know when to use it. Feeling when to use your moves musically is important, but more important is how and when to use your moves for good floorcraft (navigation) The most exciting and musically satisfying dance can be ruined for the follower quite quickly and completely by one crash. And by the way, she doesn't have to get hurt herself. If the crash results in her hitting someone else who gets hurt, that will ruin it just as much for her.

So don't skimp on the time invested in understanding WHAT you are leading, not just HOW to lead it. Eventually, like a foreign language, you will begin to think in the other language rather than translate in and out of your own (leader) language.

I've always wondered if this is the reason that so many dance directions and descriptions are from the follower's POV... ie: "back ochos" are HER going back, not you, etc.

 

[tangomonkey]

Haven't tried to play any tango yet, but I have enough sheet music to probably last the rest of my life!
Funny how many "syncopations" turn up in "simple" music.

Blues (and more so jazz) use syncopation a lot. That's a phrase I hear dancers misuse (or at least not used the way a musician does).
My wife is the piano player. She made an arrangement of Bahia Blanca for piano duet for a couple of her students to learn. She's planning to make a few more. Maybe a Vals and a Milonga for a tango album. Any suggestions?

 

[Zoopsia59]

syncopation. That's a phrase I hear dancers misuse

Yeah... we've had whole threads on that.. I'm sure we'll have at least one or two more during your time here.

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Blues (and more so jazz) use syncopation a lot. That's a phrase I hear dancers misuse (or at least not used the way a musician does).
My wife is the piano player. She made an arrangement of Bahia Blanca for piano duet for a couple of her students to learn. She's planning to make a few more. Maybe a Vals and a Milonga for a tango album. Any suggestions?

I like Milonga de 900. Pedacito de Cielo is a nice vals, easy to play on the piano.You can get the scores from todotango dot com.

 

[tangomonkey]

I would like to recommend taking DC's advice one step further... be aware starting TODAY, even with the basic steps you are doing, what the follower's response is supposed to be. IMO, one fo the hardest things about becoming "fluent" in leading is "thinking in the foreign language"... ie: the follower's role...

...Too often leaders learn their part in a class and remain blissfully unaware of what the follower is supposed to do in response. They trust that she will "do her steps" as she was taught, and that it will take care of itself...

...take the time to understand what the follower's part is for each thing you learn to lead. Don't just learn some steps and hope she will do her 'part'... whatever her part is... you aren't totally sure, but hopefully SHE knows...

YOU need to know. Otherwise you won't know know what the point is to anything you're doing and you won't know when to use it. Feeling when to use your moves musically is important, but more important is how and when to use your moves for good floorcraft (navigation) The most exciting and musically satisfying dance can be ruined for the follower quite quickly and completely by one crash. And by the way, she doesn't have to get hurt herself. If the crash results in her hitting someone else who gets hurt, that will ruin it just as much for her.

So don't skimp on the time invested in understanding WHAT you are leading, not just HOW to lead it. Eventually, like a foreign language, you will begin to think in the other language rather than translate in and out of your own (leader) language.

Interesting. After our dance the teacher suggested I take her “Leaders’ Class for Followers” (as a follow in the class). A way for me to learn what a follower needs from the leader and how she responds. She said there were followers who were also very good leaders, some having tangoed both roles for 10-12 years. I thought “Just what I need, take an advanced class doing something I have never done before. No thanks”. Should have done it.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Interesting. After our dance the teacher suggested I take her “Leaders’ Class for Followers” (as a follow in the class). A way for me to learn what a follower needs from the leader and how she responds. She said there were followers who were also very good leaders, some having tangoed both roles for 10-12 years. I thought “Just what I need, take an advanced class doing something I have never done before. No thanks”. Should have done it.

You'll have other opportunities. For now, you can just talk to the followers in your class (even if you have to do it after the class) and ask them "What are you doing when I'm doing X?"... that will be a good start.