Navigating the learning process… Advice?

[Stephanie Bolton]

I have been taking group classes for about 2 years, twice a week usually. For most of the last year I have also been regularly "practicing" Latin dances (Salsa, bachata, etc) at the local nightclub. Recently visited Istanbul and Paris, went dancing and was very inspired to sign up for some private lessons when I got home (to Hawaii).
The instructor asked me what style I want to focus on…
since I'd really love to be a versatile dancer & I love so many styles of music, I'm not exactly sure… salsa would probably be my strongest dance so do I want to stick with that or work with something I'm not so good at?
I guess I was hoping there was just some standard protocol for learning
like basic training curriculum- because I also feel it is hard for me to gauge my level…
At home, I get the impression people consider me to be quite a good dancer but abroad I got the impression people felt like I was a beginner and not very good (everyone was lovely & very nice, but I felt that I was not able to respond to their lead exactly as they expected me to)… this made me feel a little confused and I'd love to work on being more lead-able in general so I can dance with anyone to anything
…any recommendations?

 

[Bailamosdance]

There actually is a syllabus and your dance quality depends, as you,see, on your instruction and environment. In the US, the focus is on 'fun' and to downplay the long arc of learning.

Taking group classes for a few years is not really much education, frankly, since quality of partner dance needs more than step classes or group movement. And clubbing is not practice, altho you may, from time to time, be able to apply your group experiences. That's why altho your peers appreciate your dancing, compared to folks who have studied dance as you hope to be taught rather than studied club style salsa, you suffer in comparison. Additionally, creating the muscle memory that allows you to dance at a higher level is sometimes compromised by the adjustments you must make when you dance with folks who have not had good training.

Dance training in the US is very often free form and not based on much more than expectations. And, salsa and bachata, while fun, are not us wall approached with the same gravity as people approach Latin or Standard, for instance, which have about 90 years of syllabus instruction behind them.

 

[RiseNFall]

A few comments….

Be sure that your teacher knows that you want to work on lead and follow. I have a nearly insatiable appetite for that kind of work, but not all students do, and the teacher needs to know what your goals are.

There are frequently differences between the club styles of dances and the ballroom styles, as well as localized differences in club styles. Being able to follow well will certainly help in navigating these differences, but it isn't always easy to adjust to the differences. It is also helpful to be aware of where you instructor is coming from to make sure that the instruction will match your goals. Does he do competitive ballroom, or does he specialize in dances such as Salsa and Bachata? If you check out the Salsa forum here, you will begin to get an idea of the differences.

 

[Elece]

I have been taking group classes for about 2 years, twice a week usually. For most of the last year I have also been regularly "practicing" Latin dances (Salsa, bachata, etc) at the local nightclub. Recently visited Istanbul and Paris, went dancing and was very inspired to sign up for some private lessons when I got home (to Hawaii).
The instructor asked me what style I want to focus on…
since I'd really love to be a versatile dancer & I love so many styles of music, I'm not exactly sure… salsa would probably be my strongest dance so do I want to stick with that or work with something I'm not so good at?
I guess I was hoping there was just some standard protocol for learning
like basic training curriculum- because I also feel it is hard for me to gauge my level…
At home, I get the impression people consider me to be quite a good dancer but abroad I got the impression people felt like I was a beginner and not very good (everyone was lovely & very nice, but I felt that I was not able to respond to their lead exactly as they expected me to)… this made me feel a little confused and I'd love to work on being more lead-able in general so I can dance with anyone to anything
…any recommendations?

 

[debmc]

If you like salsa/ bachata type dances, you might also enjoy learning the American rhythm dances ( chacha, rumba, east coast swing, bolero and mambo). You could ask your instructor to teach you those...if he is a ballroom teacher as well as a salsa instructor.

For a completely different change you could learn smooth dances...waltz, foxtrot, tango, Viennese waltz. Very different in technique, feel and music.

If you are trying to be a better salsa dancer, private lessons focusing on lead and follow, ladies styling, spins and turns and even afrocuban dance classes can all help. Check out the salsa forums on this site too for more information.

As far as a basic training curriculum...usually teachers start by teaching patterns and timing, then add in technique and lead and follow, then more patterns and advanced timing, then more technique and connection/ lead and follow and so forth...each getting more complicated as you continue.

 

[Stephanie Bolton]

There actually is a syllabus and your dance quality depends, as you,see, on your instruction and environment. In the US, the focus is on 'fun' and to downplay the long arc of learning.

Taking group classes for a few years is not really much education, frankly, since quality of partner dance needs more than step classes or group movement. And clubbing is not practice, altho you may, from time to time, be able to apply your group experiences. That's why altho your peers appreciate your dancing, compared to folks who have studied dance as you hope to be taught rather than studied club style salsa, you suffer in comparison. Additionally, creating the muscle memory that allows you to dance at a higher level is sometimes compromised by the adjustments you must make when you dance with folks who have not had good training.

Dance training in the US is very often free form and not based on much more than expectations. And, salsa and bachata, while fun, are not us wall approached with the same gravity as people approach Latin or Standard, for instance, which have about 90 years of syllabus instruction behind them.

You've confirmed my suspicions regarding the matter.
As far as a syllabus- is there something generally accessible you can suggest I might refer to?

And also, in your opinion, what would you consider to be an ideal amount of time I should expect to devote on a weekly basis if I am to truly develop mastery? In ethnic dances, I've heard it said 90 min for 90 days is a good amount of time to devote to mastering something new… I've heard fitness-minded instructors insist 3x a week for 30+min is a minimum for retaining muscle memory… but I've also read 4 hours a day a realistic expectation for a performer… obviously, I don't perform but those are the dancers I'd love to look like, so…
...what would be your suggestion?

 

[RiseNFall]

Search on "practice", marking "titles only", and you will come up with 5 pages of threads--some of which are about "practice spaces in London" or "practice shoes", but many of which will be helpful. Some of it is matching practice to goals (or goals to available practice time….)

You would like to look like the dancers performing what style of dances? Foxtrot and Waltz? Argentine Tango? Cha-Cha? Each of those has variations/subdivisions as well! There is certainly some crossover in that if you are a phenomenal International Latin dancer it is going to be much, much easier for you to learn Argentine Tango than it is for the average person, but still, the performers are specializing.

 

[dbk]

IMO it's best to pick one style and give it a good chunk of your time: a few months, if not a year. Rinse and repeat once you're happy with where you've gotten (or you've gotten bored/frustrated). I love the idea of being good at several different styles, but I've never had success trying to learn more than one style at a time. It's too distracting. (Although if you have a lot of time and good body awareness, this might not be as important for you).

I'd also suggest sticking with one or two coaches at a time. Again, I love variety, but you need someone familiar with your quirks, your progress, etc.

Finally, and probably most important: COMMUNICATE with your instructor. Tell him/her "I want to work on being a sensitive follower." Most instructors love a student who actually knows what s/he wants to learn. If your instructor isn't OK with you picking the goals, or if s/he isn't sure how to teach you what you want, find someone else.

 

[Partner Dancer]

I have been taking group classes for about 2 years, twice a week usually. For most of the last year I have also been regularly "practicing" Latin dances (Salsa, bachata, etc) at the local nightclub. Recently visited Istanbul and Paris, went dancing and was very inspired to sign up for some private lessons when I got home (to Hawaii).
The instructor asked me what style I want to focus on…
since I'd really love to be a versatile dancer & I love so many styles of music, I'm not exactly sure… salsa would probably be my strongest dance so do I want to stick with that or work with something I'm not so good at?

Two years really isn't much in the realm of partner/social dancing. There are people with
formal (solo) dance training that pick up things prolifically, but they have little/no problem
with balance/timing/musicality/etc. on day one, and just have to deal with the partnering
issues (connection, floorcrafting for leaders, compensation, etc.).

If you want to be a "generically" good/great dancer, there is probably no single instructor
that would ever get you there. Most instructors will teach you something, to varying
degrees, but you are on your own to figure out what works for you and how the various
dances/disciplines fit your taste/talent. You might even come to the conclusion that
some things taught you are good and others not so good (or plainly bad), as you
become more dance-aware.

If you _really_ want to get good, take ballet/jazz/tap/hiphop/lyrical/etc. dancing on
the side so that personal movement is no longer an issue (unless you already had
these). You do need to figure out how the exercises/techiques taught in these
classes carry over to partner dancing. Then go to as many social dances as you
can, to go figure out how things work in the "real world."

I guess I was hoping there was just some standard protocol for learning
like basic training curriculum- because I also feel it is hard for me to gauge my level…

No such thing, but the general dance "programs" of various dance schools are
actually quite decent. Unfortunately, they all teach "how/what" to do things
(at least in their circles) rather than "why," or how things apply in the big
picture.

You gauge your level by how much pleasure your social partners delight in
dancing with you, through smiles, compliments, or whatever. You gauge
your level by how many partners you are able to dance with comfortably,
regardless of how crappy they may be.

At home, I get the impression people consider me to be quite a good dancer but abroad I got the impression people felt like I was a beginner and not very good (everyone was lovely & very nice, but I felt that I was not able to respond to their lead exactly as they expected me to)… this made me feel a little confused and I'd love to work on being more lead-able in general so I can dance with anyone to anything
…any recommendations?

This is mostly due to familiarity. If you danced abroad for a longer duration,
you'd pick up what they do. Very much like spoken language and other
means of communication. But, I also do think Europeans (and others)
are often more serious about their social dancing, and so may be more
"rigid" in their partnering expectations.

So, the bottom line is the more you know how to move your body and the
more exposure you have to what partners do in various dances, which may
differ between the states and other places, the more adaptable/intuitive
you will be to dancing with "strangers." Unfortuately, there are also many
dances/populations where a lot of stuff done is "pattern-based" rather than
"connection-based," which means trying to decipher things on the fly is
next to impossible. Like use of idioms or idiomatic expressions in
vernacular languages.

 

[opendoor]

..feel it is hard for me to gauge my level……. can dance with anyone to anything …any recommendations?

Would you like something more… ? Joke aside, you cannot get all, so you have to focus on some main areas. Steps really is/are a secondary matter. What actually counts is leading-following technique (we call it projection) and gaining certainty with different holds. You can get pretty far with three holds, the ballroom frame, the argentine embrace, and the open hold of salsa and swing. All remaining holds are variants of the former three.

So in the end I would suggest four privates a week one with a really good tango teacher (salón style), ballroom teacher (standard style), swing teacher (wcs style), and salsa (casino style).

 

[Br0nze]

I have been taking group classes for about 2 years, twice a week usually. For most of the last year I have also been regularly "practicing" Latin dances (Salsa, bachata, etc) at the local nightclub. Recently visited Istanbul and Paris, went dancing and was very inspired to sign up for some private lessons when I got home (to Hawaii).
The instructor asked me what style I want to focus on…
since I'd really love to be a versatile dancer & I love so many styles of music, I'm not exactly sure… salsa would probably be my strongest dance so do I want to stick with that or work with something I'm not so good at?
I guess I was hoping there was just some standard protocol for learning
like basic training curriculum- because I also feel it is hard for me to gauge my level…
At home, I get the impression people consider me to be quite a good dancer but abroad I got the impression people felt like I was a beginner and not very good (everyone was lovely & very nice, but I felt that I was not able to respond to their lead exactly as they expected me to)… this made me feel a little confused and I'd love to work on being more lead-able in general so I can dance with anyone to anything
…any recommendations?

I'll offer up my two cents and an answer to the way I understand the question. If it helps you, awesome. If not, apologies in advance.

I'm glad to hear you say you've chosen to take up private lessons. They give you the opportunity to be the sole focus of the teacher's attention, and you will improve leaps and bounds by learning that way.

For Ballroom, there isn't a "curriculum" per se, but there are definitely syllabi and elements that your teacher should and will convey to you. They include posture (the positioning of your spine in relation to the rest of your joints), poise (the angle at which your posture hits the floor), and movement (the shifting of the posture through the standing foot/leg), and your connection/frame (or how to adequately and properly respond to the signals your partner(s) will be sending you).

All patterns, it should be noted, are manifestations and manipulations of those larger elements, and incorporate in them different elements as well: swing, sway, power, recovery for Smooth/Standard dances, and hip actions etc in Latin/Rhythm dances. Your teacher will explain all these things to you as well, I'm sure.

The most important things to understand about learning how to [ballroom] dance are that (a) it takes time (of course this should go without saying but still), (b) different dances utilize the same general concepts differently enough to indeed be different and those differences are often subtle in nature, and (c) there are three levels of learning you're going to go through (mental, physical, emotional), each stage taking an unknown and indeterminable amount of time because most of it depends on your learning style and effort.

The learning process involves hearing the information, processing it mentally, applying it and trying to manifest it physically, and repeating this over and over and over. You'll most likely learn in detail and in isolated motions, and then be asked to put it all together (for example: the hip motion in Rumba as it relates to your posture, where your poise is to make the action happen, and what in your connection will initiate the motion for you to finish).

You should also keep in mind that Ballroom Dancing is different from what we call Social Dancing. Meaning, Cha Cha, Rumba, Swing, Bolero in Rhythm are different from Salsa and Bachata that are danced in clubs, and so the culture(s) and signals and such has the potential to be different. It's worth exploring and discussing with your teacher what the differences are/may be, and how you can make connections and transfer things from ballroom to your social dancing.

Long story short, the progression of your dancing is going to be tracked and planned by your instructor, and you will be taught what you need to know to be a better individual dancer, which then in turn will make you a better partner. The process also depends on your goals and concentrated dances, though, and while the larger picture elements are inescapable, there are things that can be glossed over because they don't technically apply (for example, you'll have no reason to learn the principles of swing, sway, and recovery if you're never going to dance Waltz or Foxtrot, but you will still need to learn the principle of, say, turning, because turns are a staple of most Latin dances).

Keep in mind, too, the learning and teaching processes are fluid and changeable as goals fluctuate and are reached.

Everyone's dance journey is different in the details but similar in the overall perceptive. I wish you luck on yours!

 

[fascination]

your contributions are such a gift to this forum...thank you

 

[Stephanie Bolton]

So in the end I would suggest four privates a week one with a really good tango teacher (salón style), ballroom teacher (standard style), swing teacher (wcs style), and salsa (casino style).[/quote]

that would be awesome…

….hmmm, I may need to make more money… or find teachers who will work for art or a service

 

[RiseNFall]

Nah… eight a week: might as well take a double lesson once you there.