New Dancer, need some tips on leading

Whenever I tried something with the instructor, she had nothing but praise, the real bumps came in when I tried improvising with the other women there. ... It is just very frustrating because when I do try what I am doing with the actual instructor, she says that I am doing extremely well and doesnt have any technical suggestions like she has with the others. .

Either you are on your way to being a tango god doing everything naturally or intuitively, or your teacher just doesn't want to get into the level of correction that you need at this stage of the class.

I'm thinking its the latter, but if its the former, we'll all be wanting to know where you are so we can come dance with you!;)

Seriously... I can't imagine there's NOTHING about what you are doing that could be corrected/ improved/ commented on, so I can only assume that they are trying to get others through the obvious basic problems before working on your somewhat more advanced problems.

If you have people literally falling down and possibly showing up drunk, you might get shortchanged in the attention you need.
 
However since we are all still beginners, the followers arent really leaning their weight onto me as much as standing really really close to me. Which as you said, makes it hard to feel eachothers weight/balance/movement. I suspect this is wrong. Is that a better explanation?
Sounds good to me.
Can't say that it's "wrong", but I can say, and already did, that IMO it makes some things difficult in my experience.
If you can't feel your partner, she probably can't feel you either. And feeling weight/balance/movement is what you need to do with each other.
For me that mean weight sharing in the torso, or the one side of your body plus joined hands of the V enbrace, or the shoulder/arm joining of a more open embrace.

And at home when I try to introduce rock steps with my partner in order to be able to navigate around the confines of a small apartment, I dont seem to be communicating effectively when I am going to turn us to avoid a table

You are trying the rock step to your left, I trust? It's easier that direction (because of the asymetry of the embrace).
Have you been taught the technique of turning your torso to lead a change of direction?
Since we usually dance counter clockwise, you can practice just rotating your upper body to the left. If you are walking with your partner and you do this, you should move her to your left side, begining a "left turn", which you then follow.

See how far you can comfortably turn that torso to the left, and practice doing it, and returning to "straight ahead" until it starts to feel "natural" to do this.
Try doing it while you are walking forward, and walk around your place without your partner (and without running into stuff).
Then try it with your partner without walking to see if she can feel it.
If she can feel it, try it with her.

Practice the rock steps, and keeping the heal of your back foot on the floor.
Then practice them while moving a bit to the left with each step.
Try it on the right side, too.
 
What are you doing in class in terms of embrace? Open-hold or Close-embrace? Which embrace do you have the most interest in? What about the dance do you find so attractive? Which style do you want to dance, traditional or Nuevo? These leads are all different as I see it.
 
@gregolam
If you are not leaning that you are not dancing close embrace, just open embrace that you are quite close.

@zoopsia

When I had workshops with Federico Naveira and Ines Muzzopappa I would dance without embrace at all.
How would you comment that?

When I had workshops with Bruno Tombari and Mariangeles Camano I would holds palms of my partner and dance.
 
Hello and welcome Gregolam,

First I wanted to say it's great to see your excitement with this dance coming across here in your posts. As Angel said, you obviously have a great attitude and the right mindset and I think you'll go far as a result.

You are getting great advice here. I'm no expert or teacher (some on here are), but I'll throw in a few things I think might be helpful. One thing I felt might be accidentally misleading in the above posts is this idea of sharing weight in a close embrace. Some close embrace styles literally share weight where the dancers would fall if they were not both there, but this is not the only close embrace. In my close embrace style I am on my own axis and my follower could leave without me falling - she feels my constant presence, and vice versa, through a connected forward pressure between our chests but we are each on our own axis, not sharing an axis. My weight is "forward", over my toes, but I am not leaning on her. So there are many different styles of embrace, all valid, and I'm not saying anything about which option is best. My point is simply that there can be a tendency for a beginner to hear "share weight" or "lean" and end up with an uncomfortable result where one dancer is carrying the other so you want to avoid that. I would slightly modify Mladenac's statement above - I would say "if your chests are not in contact, then you are not dancing close embrace, you are dancing in an open embrace"

You mentioned an "exaggerated lean" when you try to indicate your intention. I was once given an analogy that helped me, which was to think of the two dancers' spines, then move those spines around the dancefloor. So if you imagine that whatever the position of your spines before you step (depends on the embrace and level of shared axis), you would move your spine parralel to the floor without changing it's attitude. Thinking in this way helped me to move my upper body consistently without losing my posture or leaning as you describe.

Next thing I found that helped me was the idea of indicating a step and moving "leg first". So if you imagine that you want to lead a step to your left, your partners right, you would give a slight indication in that direction by moving your spine a little that way. When she picks up that indication, if she is skilled, her leg will go out ready to move as will yours but she will not move immediately. Then as you continue the movement of your spine the two of you will move together to find your new axis at the end of the step. In sending the legs out first, in a sense you are marking where you will go, but until you both move your axis, you can still change direction and adjust the movement. (this will be important later for all sorts of things because it allows you to "play" with her free leg - a simple example is to send the legs out then bring them back again in order to play with the rhythm of the music). The "indication" part can be extremely subtle with a skilled follower but with the ladies in your beginner class may have to be quite a noticeable movement. Note that the leg going out can be "balanced" by contraposture which you might need to work on or which might just come naturally to you - I often find the more I try to think about that the harder it gets.

Lastly on a "technical" note, just bear in mind that a step is a "continuum" and your indication will need to adapt to both the sensitivity of the follower and the size and speed of step you wish to lead. Beginner followers will need a lot more indication and beginner dancers will tend to simply step the same distance each time (whatever distance is their basic comfortable step). Down the line though you will be looking to convey in the indication for the step how far and how fast you want to move, and that indication will also have to adjust to the partner you're dancing with... but it may be too early to worry about that, I'm just being enthusiastic because you're so clearly keen.

Last of all, I would look around your dance community for a mentor among the better dancers. In my experience the ladies are very keen to encourage a new leader and very patient allowing you to lead them so you can get a good idea of what you're trying to achieve. Tell them how keen you are to get this right and that you don't want them to make allowances for you... if they follow what you are actually leading, you will soon find plenty to work on - I remember early on thinking a lady was absolutely mad because she was stepping all over the place - it turned out she was very skilled and every time I had a little beginner wobble she was following me :)

best wishes,
Blue
 
I dance V close embrace tango salon (open as well)

I am a bit offset so it's partner.
I step on extended leg, on my heel, my partner when walking backwards stand on extended leg also, but as she is standing on her balls of foot she takes her step from the ribcage, not from hips (as in open embrace) so to maintain the distance.

example can been seen in this video (very beginning)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q72qSPZwEWA
 
I have read a good deal of posts and threads now and gotten a much better idea of where to go from here. The 'Leading-betwee forcing and inviting' thread in particular is a phenomenal one, and it helped me understand that it is almost if not more difficult for advanced AT dancers to describe how to be a great leader as it is for conscientious aspiring leads to understand it. One thing that is also sticking in my head was the point made that it is possible to do a very high technical level of tango primarily as a guessing game, and this was a much better way of describing exactly what I was trying to get at. I am not having too much trouble at all with the technical aspects of the dance, but the 'connection as one' part of the dance is much more elusive, and not just because I am a new dancer but also because it is difficult to pull off at any level of the dance.

All of the advice given, as well as previous threads, have given me a vast amount of technical and theoretical area to expand and improve on. So before I come back and ask any further questions, there are a few things I think I should do based on everyones advice. First I am going to schedule a few more private lessons, since this seems to be a critical time for me, but instead of just showing up and hoping the instructor gets what I am saying right there, I will send some emails beforehand, and hopefully with the sizeable amount of ideas I have gotten from here I can give her an adequate idea of where I stand as a student and what specific problems I need to tackle.

I also think it would also be to my benefit to take the occasional private lesson but in order to learn as a follower; I think learning to feel an experienced leads 'signals' or 'intentions' would give me tremendous insight into how to execute my own.

There is one other thing I was particularly wary of doing, but based on so much enthusiastic help here I think it merits a try. That is communicate my intent (passion and dedication also) to my two sets of instructors (I am trying to expand my base to both Philly and NJ, there's really only one feasible option for me in NJ so I can't rely on that alone), and try to see if they have any advanced followers who would be enthusiastic about taking me under their wing. It seems to me that if I can get this extra help both inside and outside of class, I stand a much better chance of having someone be extra strict with me. Trying to understand this higher level stuff just isn't likely to happen between a beginning lead and a beginning follower. And it is also just too expensive to schedule multiple private lessons all the time.

Thanks to all for the tremendously helpful advice. One more thing though, I am not going to respond to alot of the technical queries JUST YET. For one there is enough material for it to be helpful to just go over a bunch more times. However more importantly, I would like to expand on the suggestions I mentioned above first. I think it would behoove me to tackle all of this aggressively first before coming back, that way I have much more educated and substantive queries and elaborations.

I am still very much pouring over what is read here though, so feel free to keep the advice coming! I am just withholding my questions for the time being until I have advanced myself at least a little further.
 
A few thoughts

Learning with other beginners is very difficult (even though that is how it's commonly done). The main problem you are encountering, is what it takes for a lead to be clear for a beginner, is different from what it takes to be clear for a more experienced dancer (like a teacher). It sounds like you have made a lot of progress on one, but not on the other. One thing I have observed, is that a beginning follower needs more support (and usually a stronger lead) than an experienced follower would want (or need).

There is nothing wrong with learning the 8 count basic, but remember that it is just a teaching drill, and not something that you would actually do when dancing socially. I like that you vary the pattern in the middle, as this is how you find out how much you are actually leading, along with how much they are following. It's also good to just start out walking forward, just to make it clear to the follower that you are doing something else.

You mentioned about being in New Jersey. Here is who I would recommend taking lessons from (there) if you get a chance. Diego is excellent.
http://www.carolinaydiego.com/

Good luck
 
That helps alot actually, right now I am taking classes with Andres Amarila and Meredith Klein in Philly, and when expanding on my sources of instruction I would at least like to make sure I am getting it from quality sources. When I am a stronger dancer I will also look into things in NYC as well.

For the time being I have alot of work ahead of me, and thanks to this board I have a much clearer idea of where I should be focusing on and where I should be getting help from. Many thanks again to all.
 
..... However when I am doing this with the other students things get much more sloppy, and I have trouble getting them to not to move all over the place. And at home when I try to introduce rock steps with my partner in order to be able to navigate around the confines of a small apartment, I dont seem to be communicating effectively when I am going to turn us to avoid a table, or keep bringing her back into the cross and then finish.
THE problem is that you have not been taught 'how to lead'. It is NOT your fault. The above difficulty should have been handled well within 6 weeks.8)
 
I actually spent a good amount of time going through ALL of the threads, starting way back with page 55 (I skipped over some of the less useful ones). You actually had quite a few very helpful posts, in particular your 'Things AT leaders should know' which was over a year ago if you even remember.

So thanks for all that and also the blog. After all that reading I feel thoroughly prepared to get a few good private lessons and hopefully make a few good advancements. Can't wait.

 

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