No need to break it down - we should all just discard the parts that we think are crap, which frees up space to either experiment with what could be better or just enjoy dancing casually. Since I think there is a lot of nonsense currently in circulation I guess that makes me a modernist.
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No need to break it down - we should all just discard the parts that we think are crap, which frees up space to either experiment with what could be better or just enjoy dancing casually. Since I think there is a lot of nonsense currently in circulation I guess that makes me a modernist.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
Not just +1s in the usual sense, either. One time, I tried to invite a woman who seemed not to be invited, only to have her tell me she doesn't dance (tango or anything else), and was present simply to accompany her daughter!
JournalInTime
Forum Master
I have that every single evening I go out. All hail cruddy eyesight!
My experience is that what makes a person (woman or man) attractive is in no small part "clearly in a couple with somebody else." I suppose that signals the person is worth being in a couple with, "safe," and/or some sort of challenge, depending on the mentality of the beholder.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
That depends on how your mind works.
Plenty of people need analysis, deconstruction, and reduction to points in order to understand a thing, or to frame their existing understanding of or feelings about that thing. Then they synthesize or reconstruct from whatever elements they deem indispensable. That's no more or less intelligent – or easier or harder – than approaching the matter holistically and discarding elements that don't work as they arise. It's just different.
I agree with you completely on the final outcome. I just disagree on the process. I prefer explicit deconstruction, an examination of individual points for validity, and synthesis of compatible valid points into a new thesis, to a thesis that innately serves as a test for what to keep and what to discard as it arises.
No arguments with the general sentiment. The specifics of what constitutes "nonsense" would probably lead to a lot of arguments, though.
I've had people tell me that they think the line of dance, and the traditional rules for how to enter it, not backing up, not changing lanes, etc., are "nonsense," with which I firmly disagree. On the other hand, I think that terming the post-1955 radio tangos "undanceable," insisting on always marking the 1 in a measure, and deeming more balletic dance steps "not tango" all to be a huge packet of whatever. If I'm having fun pivoting 3-4-1-2 on demi-pointe through a bombastic Varela number, that's my business.Oh, I do deconstruct things too - I tend to just post the synthesis, that's why my post length is probably the lowest average on this forum
It is complicated, and it's not homogeneous. There are strata of milongas, although some like to believe they are, or should be, identical.
If they were all the same, we would have encuentros.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
I've spent too much time in academia, so my brain now assumes I'll get marked on my reasoning and not on my results.
pianistamediano
Forum Master
Cabeceo works when both parties use it as intended — the women choose the man/men they want to dance with by trying to make and maintain eye contact, responding with an affirmative signal as appropriate if they are successful in doing so. Whether or not their desired partners want to dance with them or not is a problem solely to do with mutual desirability.
I'm not sure just where this idea of cabeceo = women/followers have to be passive comes from, it's pretty prevalent in tango and I am quite frustrated with how so many followers are willing to just give up all their deciding power in favour of sitting and waiting for dances.
At least in my experience, both sides have equal agency. Granted, while men initiate the invitation more often, many followers often smile or make some signal first too.
With regards to turning down invitations, if via cabeceo, they simply don't make eye contact, turn away, or just don't respond. If verbal, then it's the same issue women have in every social dance out there, not just tango. I'm not sure why the women over where JIT is at feel that they have to resort to looking down at their phones.
In Europe at least, I've met countless women who use it very well; and if they don't want to dance a particular song, they make it very clear. They decline verbal invitations with ease too.
Cabeceo isn't the only way to invite, thankfully; many a time I've been invited verbally too, though usually by a friend. It's more of a tool (and long-lived custom/tradition, I suppose) than anything. You do the same when ordering at a bar/restaurant and trying to get the waiter/bartender's attention.
TTanguero
Forum Master
I do social ballroom, country etc. I just ask guys. I have no problem doing so. They are usually delighted or seem so. And I’m 66 yo. So it’s not because I’m a babe!
It comes from an older culture, perhaps/probably an inherited, romanticised(?), perception, or maybe literature (e.g. Jane Austen?) of that culture where females waited to be asked by a male. Like it was the male who had to invite the female, pay for the night out, meal, etc. Of course, that got overturned from the 1960s/70s and, maybe coincidentally, around the time of the Pill and, so-called, sexual liberation. Also a post-WW2 time where women, increasingly worked - and had experience from war years, women's lib, with an impact on society.
Of course females in earlier eras worked the system to obtain what they desired.
If you like, it's a stereotype of previous eras. Males have had millennia of 'inviting'; females, about a century.
Nowadays, of course, we've moved away from the dance hall to find your dream partner! Any male who pursues some female, or is perceived to do so, may be held up as a molester. That may, or may not, be true. But we now have uncertainty about what's acceptable.
I suspect that makes us expect females to 'play the game', but the playbook has changed - at least for solos. Also the environment (lighting, seating, space, cortinas, general order, etc) isn't always helpful. So why play? It's now seen as mainly about the dance, not the person. Perhaps also too many 'traditionalists' who might be expected to object. You could 'lose face' on social media.
Yes. But many 'milongas' aren't in a dedicated room as in BsAs (although maybe that's just a perception). That's not the home culture. In fact the 'dance hall' itself may be strange! They're not attended by young singles only, perhaps with chaperone, in a barrio where everyone is known, as are the couples (possibly parents, or friends of parents).
Nevertheless, given the appropriate favourable conditions, cabeceo/mirada can work - but it's often necessary to assist that in some way (e.g. walking over to be close enough to be seen, sitting and talking between tandas). Or maybe just workaround with some pre-arranged mental list, or social set.
But you also walk to the bar and ask! Or even order on your phone. You also expect some service!
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pianistamediano
Forum Master
Hence my (indirect) assertion that cabeceo is not the be-all and end-all! I see it as facilitating communication, even a ritual that any stranger/dancer to an unfamiliar milonga can rely on to get the ball rolling.
The whole thing about hoping vs expecting to dance with someone is pretty gnarly; in both, there is desire of course, but I think expecting implies an attachment to that one outcome and no other, which isn't present in hoping. You feel disappointment and the pang of rejection in both cases, but I'd say it hurts more in the latter.
We could stretch the metaphor even more; the success of a transaction relies on all parties involved accepting goods/payment rendered. If tango is a transaction, then the transaction usually (not always, but adding more complex social dynamics into this is too troublesome) involves the promise/chance of an adequately enjoyable dance on both sides — the inviter offers that, and the invitee evaluates the likelihood of such a scenario before giving their response.
It's akin to someone trying to pay a European bartender with American dollars when all they accept is Euros, or just not having enough currency on hand. That's when service can and will be denied.
It's a ritual, but it's unreliable because of the physical environment of some milongas**, and because of some/most attendees. As I've noted elsewhere, there are strata of milongas (is an encuentro, or marathon, a 'milonga'?). At some stratum level no one cares how you invite, or are invited; at others cabeceo/mirada may be their cultural norm, or they think it is. If your invites aren't working then you have to 'read the room' to work that out (yes, your cabeceo and lack of mirada was observed!)
**A few nights ago I watched someone attempting cabeceo across the busy dance floor to someone in conversation on the row behind me. It took various repositioning and interesting gestures jiggling around to even get a line-of-sight through moving dancers. He walked round after the first dance of the tanda to ask.
Who started that conspiracy
pianistamediano
Forum Master
As you say, some! Anecdotally, in my experience, having danced all over Europe and in three milongas un Asia, I've used cabeceo to invite successfully in the majority of dances despite the environment (low lighting, ridiculously ephemeral sightlines, etc.). It's partly a skill issue (on both our parts) and an issue of how much you want to dance with a particular dancer, and how much they're open to dancing with you/other leaders.
So I wouldn't say unreliable overall — it can be unreliable, and I've definitely encountered milongas where I gave up after an hour and simply danced with all the followers I was chatting to at the refreshments table/bar, but the vast majority of the time, I find it quite reliable. Your mileage may vary, of course.
At least the kind of followers I usually dance with accept verbal invitations only with friends/mid-conversation; otherwise, we each prefer cabeceo.
You are conflating the reliability and effectiveness of cabeceo with one's dance desirability at a milonga. The latter definitely the biggest factor in determining whether one gets dances or not, and as you say, when in Rome, do as the Romans do, but that's still besides the point.