Not sure what to do next

[lucia_l]

There's this unwritten rule for couples: If you want to dance with me, your partner should also dance with my partner. Of course, nobody wants that, because partners always dance so much worse.

At socials, tons of ladies want to dance with my husband!! Some of those have no partner. I sometimes dance with the partner of the lady who dances with my husband, but it's never been some sort of "swap". Both my husband and I circulate. When we aren't dancing, we aren't always next to each other.

 

[Brummbaer]

You are conflating the reliability and effectiveness of cabeceo with one's dance desirability at a milonga.

Not entirely. There are milongas where (shock, horror) cabeceo/mirada is unknown, or long forgotten, so it just doesn't work because it's not expected. Or maybe some will say those aren't real milongas.

'Desirability' - now that's an interesting one. The dancer who's way 'out of your league' might be avoided, even if 'desirable'. What's desirable about the 'Lounge Lizard', or Argentine equivalent? You know it's going to come to grief. Then there's the PYT, even if a great dancer - queue up or avoid? May be 'out of league' on many levels. And we've had the discussions about clothes, hair, size, etc. There are many factors which influence dance desirability, and also diminish it, to the beholder. Also, unless your (good) reputation precedes you, you've got to make that breakthrough and be seen to be dancing to offer any dance desirability.

I don't write-off cabeceo/mirada if that's the game in play. If it's working for you, that's great. But it's a pretty poor system, in many circumstances nowadays, for inviting someone, and is certainly perceived as a deterrent by some/many females to getting a dance - especially as we all age. So, for some, we get back to the safe social circle, or friends and acquaintances on some mental dance card.

 

[pianistamediano]

... certainly perceived as a deterrent by some/many females to getting a dance - especially as we all age.

Again, I'd argue that dance desirability — as an umbrella term (relative to the leaders they want to dance with) — plays a far more important role, because if the leader they want to dance with wants to dance with them, he'll make it known and invite them, and blaming it on cabeceo is pretty disingenuous.

I will defer to @TTanguero's experience with regards to women and cabeceo and age, as I am about two generations younger. As far as I know, if we consider only the older followers I dance with (say, 50s and above), cabeceo works fine with them, I see them being invited via cabeceo all the time, and I've had some pretty candid discussions with them over the whole role imbalance/inviting/social norms thing.

What I'm having trouble understanding is, even though most women followers are ironing seats because they're some combination of older/less attractive/unskilled (usually the first two), I still see them get dances via cabeceo. So it still works for them.

I definitely will acknowledge the existence of milongas where cabeceo is not the norm, but you're making them seem out of proportion — unless of course you experience a lot more of these types of milongas, in which case I apologise.

 

[Brummbaer]

I definitely will acknowledge the existence of milongas where cabeceo is not the norm, but you're making them seem out of proportion — unless of course you experience a lot more of these types of milongas, in which case I apologise

Maybe I do, but I'm not in a metropolis, so travel out to milongas. I'm probably also giving weight to the alternative, non-metropolitan, scene. Usually older (50 might be young!), more couples, fewer young ones. In fact the young ones might start their own milonga with their perception of Argentine culture. Cabeceo/mirada doesn't work well for some. Interesting that even those who are routinely in BsAs note that the environment isn't conducive to cabeceo. You can argue that it's not been taught (we were), but it's not the culture they want to dance - which is a loss for AT.

What I'm having trouble understanding is, even though most women followers are ironing seats because they're some combination of older/less attractive/unskilled (usually the first two), I still see them get dances via cabeceo. So it still works for them.

YMMV! There's also a large, and growing number, who want alternative music, maybe with some fusion dancing. Cabeceo/mirada isn't their culture either as they're used to just being asked, or asking, verbally for a dance. They find the traditional milonga culture much less 'fun'. To an extent I sympathise having recently attended a small but crowded milonga, with minimal formal cabeceo, which was certainly great fun with good traditional music, and a larger, but more traditional Argentine culture, milonga which was much less so (and, somehow, the music wasn't as good either). Noted some ladies leaving early because not being invited (I can only do so much! The TDJ also played his part). Some were looking forward to a regular alternative milonga where cabeceo/mirada certainly isn't used.

A few, or even just one, invites to dance do not comprise their idea of a good evening! Sure, some see it as the norm at a milonga. And, as noted, there's an ocean of mediocre.

I accept that some find cabeceo/mirada works for them, in their situation, with their focus on AT, and in the environment where they attend milongas, but for others, elsewhere, it doesn't - so they sensibly use alternatives.

 

[TTanguero]

I will defer to @TTanguero's experience with regards to women and cabeceo and age

Cabeceo works perfectly well in 99% of the milongas I attend, and age isn't a variable. The exceptions are very young milongas where verbal invitation is the norm (eg. Muy Lunes) and ones where the lighting setup makes it impossible (eg. Abrazame, with walls of lights on both sides).

 

[Rabbit]

Cabeceo works perfectly well in 99% of the milongas I attend, and age isn't a variable. The exceptions are very young milongas where verbal invitation is the norm (eg. Muy Lunes)

For me cabeceo worked there perfectly fine. ironically it was mainly locals doing verbal invitations

Abrazame, with walls of lights on both sides

It's fine if the DJs can control their childish impulses to press all the buttons on the lighting console!

 

[Brummbaer]

Cabeceo works perfectly well in 99% of the milongas I attend, and age isn't a variable.

So, you got 'lucky', or chose appropriately, for the milongas you attend. And I do agree that it can work well for some.

Neither yours, nor mine, are exhaustive research experiences. I'm just giving a non-metropolitan viewpoint where even travelling 100 miles or so for a milonga might be considered acceptable.

I wouldn't necessarily say it's 'age'. It's more complex, even though that can be a factor. It's also about the age people started, they're prior, or current, other dance experiences, their tango 'age', their personal situation, their desires/objectives, how much they 'buy in' to the AT culture for dances...

Undoubtedly a younger set are more likely to buy in to the cultural aspects in their search, before other responsibilities take them.

ironically it was mainly locals doing verbal invitations

Possibly the 'local' social set? As noted elsewhere, why would you cabeceo/mirada someone who's close by, or personally acquainted, etc. (And I am being more relaxed about the 'sat at tables' situation).

ones where the lighting setup makes it impossible

That does seem to becoming common where it looks like a darkened disco of the 60/70s - and makes it impossible to cabeceo with lights behind against a dark background.

 

[Bailango]

Maybe I do, but I'm not in a metropolis, so travel out to milongas. I'm probably also giving weight to the alternative, non-metropolitan, scene. Usually older (50 might be young!), more couples, fewer young ones. In fact the young ones might start their own milonga with their perception of Argentine culture. Cabeceo/mirada doesn't work well for some. Interesting that even those who are routinely in BsAs note that the environment isn't conducive to cabeceo. You can argue that it's not been taught (we were), but it's not the culture they want to dance - which is a loss for AT.



YMMV! There's also a large, and growing number, who want alternative music, maybe with some fusion dancing. Cabeceo/mirada isn't their culture either as they're used to just being asked, or asking, verbally for a dance. They find the traditional milonga culture much less 'fun'. To an extent I sympathise having recently attended a small but crowded milonga, with minimal formal cabeceo, which was certainly great fun with good traditional music, and a larger, but more traditional Argentine culture, milonga which was much less so (and, somehow, the music wasn't as good either). Noted some ladies leaving early because not being invited (I can only do so much! The TDJ also played his part). Some were looking forward to a regular alternative milonga where cabeceo/mirada certainly isn't used.

A few, or even just one, invites to dance do not comprise their idea of a good evening! Sure, some see it as the norm at a milonga. And, as noted, there's an ocean of mediocre.

I accept that some find cabeceo/mirada works for them, in their situation, with their focus on AT, and in the environment where they attend milongas, but for others, elsewhere, it doesn't - so they sensibly use alternatives.

I have see a trend in your posts.

I don’t think cabeceo/mirada are cause of the problem you keep linking it to. People not getting dances. Or older ladies not getting dances. If you replace cabaceo/mirada with direct asking the problem is going to persist.

How do I know? Other dances. People with better skills and better social status (dancewise) get more dances where there is no concept of cabeceo/mirada. People will also complain of not getting asked. There is a big inertia which prevents ladies from initiating asking. If you are not getting asked or asked enough, only alternative is go start asking. Conflating that with Cabeceo/Mirada or direct verbal asking is ignoring that gender imbalance dynamics can’t be solved by mode of asking.

Coming from a consistent leader heavy environment, there are followers who complain of not getting asked. Mostly they either don’t ask or aren’t attentive to Cabeceo/Miradas coming their way. And yes how skilled they are also plays a big part. I have never heard a follower with good skills complain about not from dances in the leader heavy milongas.

 

[TTanguero]

For me cabeceo worked there perfectly fine. ironically it was mainly locals doing verbal invitations

I mostly found people too busy chatting to be looking for cabeceo, and almost all of the invitations I've received there have been verbal (which I'm not a fan of in general, but when in Rome ...).

 

[TTanguero]

better social status (dancewise) get more dances

This is true, but I think people sometimes think it's some kind of fixed thing, not accessible to them.

Purely by circumstance, I ended up in a position where I was known to a fair number of people in the tango scene at a rather early stage, and that definitely made it easier to get dances. However, when I went to places where I wasn't known, I found that simply being sociable fairly quickly achieved the same result. So in my experience (as a sociable introvert) 'social status' is something that can be acquired without too much difficulty.

 

[Brummbaer]

I don’t think cabeceo/mirada are cause of the problem you keep linking it to.

I don't see it as the cause; I see it as a factor, and sometimes significant. Also part of the topic.

I could add much more about why I see some females don't get dance invites, but limit mansplaining.

I could also consider why many of the sisterhood don't simply ask. Some do. I've paid to dance, so I'm not going to sit here ironing a seat... I'm quite happy to be invited by any method, and I am. Some traditionalists aren't, even offended.

 

[pianistamediano]

The more I dance, the more I get to know people, and so the more I get to know their friends, despite being something of a misanthrope.

I get more and more dances from socialising over the years; it's pretty easy to strike up and maintain a conversation based on common interests, because I have my fingers in a multitude of pies, and I can wander from topic to topic in a web of tenuous connections and patterns.

In general, people are more willing to dance with people they find engaging or, to be reductive, engender positive emotion in the course of their interaction. It helps, of course, if one spots the many signs of a """good""" dancer in their body language (posture is a big one!) and movements, but that's no guarantee of a pleasurable dance. At the very least, they'd be more willing to dance with you than another face in the crowd. You just have to give them a good time, of course!

 

[pianistamediano]

I'm quite happy to be invited by any method, and I am. Some traditionalists aren't, even offended.

If only more would do so! Shame on them for placing all of the burden on us leaders.

 

[Brummbaer]

If only more would do so! Shame on them for placing all of the burden on us leaders.

Possibly generational as well as cultural factors. But who's going to claim to understand women?

 

[Rabbit]

I mostly found people too busy chatting to be looking for cabeceo, and almost all of the invitations I've received there have been verbal (which I'm not a fan of in general, but when in Rome ...).

Yeah, there's a significant number of people in Buenos Aires that consider cabeceo protocol to be outdated.