Not touchy feely
- Thread starter Tango Distance
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Tango Distance
Well-Known Member
Thanks Blue Two, that's good to know. I generally ignore mirada/cabeceos. Part of it is a body language thing, I'm not sure if I'm actually being asked. I actually want to work on that, if could be a good way to ask one person over another. The other part is I generally get plenty (for me) dances in a night and am not seeking more. DW, OTOH, considers any tanda undanced a failure! She also tries in various ways to get me dances, despite my many assurances I'm doing great and can take care of myself.
Tango Distance
Well-Known Member
Tango Distance Watches other Dancers
I took LotV's suggestion and tried actively watching the other dancers, with the goal of looking for aesthetic appeal rather than being strictly algorithmic. It turned out to be a good exercise in self understanding. Clearly, some ladies were better than others. I think my preferences arranged in this order:
o DW
o people I know
o newbies
o ladies that haven't been asked
o instructors
o people I recognize
o strangers
Plus factors:
o ladies that look happy
o ladies dancing open embrace
Now that all the positive thinking is out of the way, how about some negative thinking?
o She dances very well, dancing with me would probably bore her!
o She looks really into this close embrace thing, maybe she'd be less happy dancing open embrace.
For the record, almost all the ladies have been wonderful and very encouraging. I can see that as I continue to improve I'll be less worried about boring the better dancers. For the record I do sometimes ask a very experienced lady (admittedly because I know her or she has been sitting for a while rather than the goodness of her dancing). The experienced ladies are good at working with what I know and making me look good. The close embrace dancers don't seem to mind open embrace dancing with me (well, that's mostly true, a story is forthcoming...), so I suppose I shouldn't worry about that.
Now for the plot twist:
Not counting YouTube videos, I have only been exposed to Tango in my little area, with a few visiting instructors and visitors from neighboring states. When I sit out a Tanda I often go outside, to the restroom, to another room, or talk to other dancers -- I don't often watch the dancers. One exception is when my instructors dance -- wow are they good! I've been watching more per LotV's suggestion.
Business put me on the East Coast. A free practica was within walking distance of my hotel. I had a long, busy day, so I made it for about the last 1/2 hour. I thought I would just watch for 10 or 15 minutes and leave. I wound up watching until it ended.
It was different from my home town practicas or milongas. At home, the men tend to be very experienced and many of them are senior citizens. After a year of lessons, I'm usually still the least experienced male there. The women have a pretty even spread of ages and skill levels. In contrast, at the East Coast (EC) event, there was a wide range of ages and experience levels for the men (including many that looked to be pretty new to Tango), and the experienced, really good dancers tended to be women.
It was interesting to watch, and I suddenly realized why. The dancers were showing great musicality! Little things were done well, like a brief slowing of the legs at the collected position for an extra beat, double times at good spots, a quick twist-and-back for a double time beat, and more. A common example was an obviously new-to-Tango male dancing with a very good female. She would follow the lead, but put in some hints of pauses or twists that would greatly add to the musicality. Also, I didn't know anyone, so it was all new to me.
There were far more people at the EC event than my local events, so it is easy to see it would be more likely to have 5+ really good dancers just by the numbers. Having gone to watch rather than dance might have put me in a different mindset. Another interesting thought, if I dance at an out-of-state event, my algorithms will fail, as I won't know anyone. Hmmm, interesting thought, having to rely on real-time observations.
To summarize, I can see my algorithms are a better match for my local Milongas where I know many of the people from before. I have also seen them dance many times, so there is less information in watching yet again. My EC experience shows value in watching people I don't know. I also saw some neat new moves I'm looking forward to learning with DW.
Read to the end for a plot twist!
I took LotV's suggestion and tried actively watching the other dancers, with the goal of looking for aesthetic appeal rather than being strictly algorithmic. It turned out to be a good exercise in self understanding. Clearly, some ladies were better than others. I think my preferences arranged in this order:
o DW
o people I know
o newbies
o ladies that haven't been asked
o instructors
o people I recognize
o strangers
Plus factors:
o ladies that look happy
o ladies dancing open embrace
Now that all the positive thinking is out of the way, how about some negative thinking?
o She dances very well, dancing with me would probably bore her!
o She looks really into this close embrace thing, maybe she'd be less happy dancing open embrace.
For the record, almost all the ladies have been wonderful and very encouraging. I can see that as I continue to improve I'll be less worried about boring the better dancers. For the record I do sometimes ask a very experienced lady (admittedly because I know her or she has been sitting for a while rather than the goodness of her dancing). The experienced ladies are good at working with what I know and making me look good. The close embrace dancers don't seem to mind open embrace dancing with me (well, that's mostly true, a story is forthcoming...), so I suppose I shouldn't worry about that.
Now for the plot twist:
Not counting YouTube videos, I have only been exposed to Tango in my little area, with a few visiting instructors and visitors from neighboring states. When I sit out a Tanda I often go outside, to the restroom, to another room, or talk to other dancers -- I don't often watch the dancers. One exception is when my instructors dance -- wow are they good! I've been watching more per LotV's suggestion.
Business put me on the East Coast. A free practica was within walking distance of my hotel. I had a long, busy day, so I made it for about the last 1/2 hour. I thought I would just watch for 10 or 15 minutes and leave. I wound up watching until it ended.
It was different from my home town practicas or milongas. At home, the men tend to be very experienced and many of them are senior citizens. After a year of lessons, I'm usually still the least experienced male there. The women have a pretty even spread of ages and skill levels. In contrast, at the East Coast (EC) event, there was a wide range of ages and experience levels for the men (including many that looked to be pretty new to Tango), and the experienced, really good dancers tended to be women.
It was interesting to watch, and I suddenly realized why. The dancers were showing great musicality! Little things were done well, like a brief slowing of the legs at the collected position for an extra beat, double times at good spots, a quick twist-and-back for a double time beat, and more. A common example was an obviously new-to-Tango male dancing with a very good female. She would follow the lead, but put in some hints of pauses or twists that would greatly add to the musicality. Also, I didn't know anyone, so it was all new to me.
There were far more people at the EC event than my local events, so it is easy to see it would be more likely to have 5+ really good dancers just by the numbers. Having gone to watch rather than dance might have put me in a different mindset. Another interesting thought, if I dance at an out-of-state event, my algorithms will fail, as I won't know anyone. Hmmm, interesting thought, having to rely on real-time observations.
To summarize, I can see my algorithms are a better match for my local Milongas where I know many of the people from before. I have also seen them dance many times, so there is less information in watching yet again. My EC experience shows value in watching people I don't know. I also saw some neat new moves I'm looking forward to learning with DW.
Tango Distance
Well-Known Member
History Repeats but with a Happy Ending
I am taking some Blues dancing lessons (not to worry, Tango fans, Tango is still my primary dance). At the point of a small number of lessons, I went to a Blues dance. I had only danced with DW. Then, it was a sudden repeat of the "dissociation dance" of a year before. It was at the same studio... The instructor walked up to me... She was even walking South... She asked me to dance... I said yes...
I remembered it all! It went well! (Well, as well as this Blues newb can do.) It was fun!
I haven't even said anything about being hug adverse to my female Blues instructor. I saw her at a live Blues music event. Like so many dancers, she gave me a big spontaneous hug upon seeing me. I think I was a gracious acceptee. We also had a nice dance at that event. I think I'm making progress accepting short hugs.
Gancho Fascination
DW and I typically alternate Tango and Blues dancing at Blues events. For that matter, if a Milonga slips in a Blues song we have been known to dance Blues for a song at Tango. Anyway, the Blues crowd seems fascinated by ganchos! It was especially neat for us when a really good couple asked us to teach them how to do ganchos -- they were so good they caught on right away.
I am taking some Blues dancing lessons (not to worry, Tango fans, Tango is still my primary dance). At the point of a small number of lessons, I went to a Blues dance. I had only danced with DW. Then, it was a sudden repeat of the "dissociation dance" of a year before. It was at the same studio... The instructor walked up to me... She was even walking South... She asked me to dance... I said yes...
I remembered it all! It went well! (Well, as well as this Blues newb can do.) It was fun!
I haven't even said anything about being hug adverse to my female Blues instructor. I saw her at a live Blues music event. Like so many dancers, she gave me a big spontaneous hug upon seeing me. I think I was a gracious acceptee. We also had a nice dance at that event. I think I'm making progress accepting short hugs.
Gancho Fascination
DW and I typically alternate Tango and Blues dancing at Blues events. For that matter, if a Milonga slips in a Blues song we have been known to dance Blues for a song at Tango. Anyway, the Blues crowd seems fascinated by ganchos! It was especially neat for us when a really good couple asked us to teach them how to do ganchos -- they were so good they caught on right away.
Tango Distance
Well-Known Member
Tango Distance Disappoints a European Close Embrace Dancer
I usually start simple, and gradually work up in complexity through a Tanda. Some followers will look a bit bored during the first song, but wind up smiling by the last song when things have revved up.
One of our Milongas had a visitor from Europe. She seemed happy to start in open embrace, and seemed to be enjoying the first song. She kept trying to pull us together for close embrace. I would stiffen my arms and prevent it. This happened several times. I could tell her happiness-o-meter was steadily dropping. This was the only time I actively considered ending a Tanda early -- it was going well enough for me but I thought this poor lady might want to be put out of her misery. I decided the most polite thing was to continue, so we carried on to the 3rd song. She never gave up on the close embrace attempts, and I resisted each one. At the end of the tanda I got a very terse "thank you," no smile, and she fled as soon as she could. In her defense, I was the only male not dancing close embrace, and she might have seen me doing close embrace with DW. With strangers I usually clarify the open embrace thing right up front, I guess I need to do that religiously!
TD's top ten ways to politely decline close embrace:
I usually start simple, and gradually work up in complexity through a Tanda. Some followers will look a bit bored during the first song, but wind up smiling by the last song when things have revved up.
One of our Milongas had a visitor from Europe. She seemed happy to start in open embrace, and seemed to be enjoying the first song. She kept trying to pull us together for close embrace. I would stiffen my arms and prevent it. This happened several times. I could tell her happiness-o-meter was steadily dropping. This was the only time I actively considered ending a Tanda early -- it was going well enough for me but I thought this poor lady might want to be put out of her misery. I decided the most polite thing was to continue, so we carried on to the 3rd song. She never gave up on the close embrace attempts, and I resisted each one. At the end of the tanda I got a very terse "thank you," no smile, and she fled as soon as she could. In her defense, I was the only male not dancing close embrace, and she might have seen me doing close embrace with DW. With strangers I usually clarify the open embrace thing right up front, I guess I need to do that religiously!
TD's top ten ways to politely decline close embrace:
- Put some red liquid on the front of your shirt and say your old wound from having rescued that school bus full of kids is acting up again.
- I have started Mr. Universe training and my pectoral muscles are really sore
- Someone told my wife that a cousin of a friend that did some internet reading said that the younger milongueros in BA sometimes briefly go open embrace for some figures
- Sorry, our heights don't match
- I'm hot and sweaty
- A university study showed a 30 cm air gap was optimal
- There are multiple ways to do close embrace, that's so confusing, but there is only one way to do open embrace
- Steve Wozniak on Dancing with the Stars did open embrace
- Tango is changing and close embrace is dying out
- I have no close embrace training
Tango Distance
Well-Known Member
Tango Distance Does a Close Embrace Class
The class was given by visiting instructors. It was a beginner's level class. It started out just walking and ochoing with musicality. Then it switched to a fairly complicated figure in close embrace. I thought this was smart: Instead of having the same partner for minutes at a time, they made a line of leaders and a line of followers. The heads of the lines made a couple and they danced across the room. It was a great way to cycle through everyone quickly, and keep the partnerships short.
The experienced ladies would just cozy right up. The newby ladies (don't forget it was a beginner's class) would leave a gap -- that was fine by me! But then I would have to run the gauntlet, right in between the two instructors. They would catch me each time. Sometimes the instructor would smash his hands together, indicating we should do the same thing and dance close embrace. Tango Distance and the hapless beginner would reluctantly close the gap. The instructor would then smile radiantly. Other times, the instructor would grab my arm and wrap it tightly around the hapless female, and then say "yes, yeS, yES, YES!" Clearly, Tango Distance was going to have to get a little more clever. I would close up at first, and then open up, just a bit, to do the trickier parts of the figure. The instructors were still a step ahead of me. The lady instructor demonstrated with me that there was no need to break the embrace, despite all the complicated steps.
At the practica afterwards, the newby ladies danced open embrace. One even complained about close embrace and was leaving early -- I assured her I would be happy to dance open with her. She wound up staying late and said she was glad she stayed.
Here are the goods of the night:
Tango Distance does Blues Close Embrace
It's not much of a story. In my Blues dancing class the instructor announced we'd be doing close embrace. Since almost all the class consists of DW and I doing the steps after the instructors demonstrate, I thought "No problem, I have this!" To my surprise, close embrace started by the female instructor walking right up to me, and pulling me right into a Blues close embrace (BTW very similar to a Tango close embrace, except you offset a bit so your right foot could step between your partner's feet). I just went with it, and half the lesson was basically a close embrace private. I haven't said anything about being hug adverse to my Blues instructors, and as she said I did well with the close embrace part I think I weathered it pretty well.
BTW, this is a point I wanted to reach -- not necessarily wanting hugs or close embrace, but able to get through it without making others around me uncomfortable.
The class was given by visiting instructors. It was a beginner's level class. It started out just walking and ochoing with musicality. Then it switched to a fairly complicated figure in close embrace. I thought this was smart: Instead of having the same partner for minutes at a time, they made a line of leaders and a line of followers. The heads of the lines made a couple and they danced across the room. It was a great way to cycle through everyone quickly, and keep the partnerships short.
The experienced ladies would just cozy right up. The newby ladies (don't forget it was a beginner's class) would leave a gap -- that was fine by me! But then I would have to run the gauntlet, right in between the two instructors. They would catch me each time. Sometimes the instructor would smash his hands together, indicating we should do the same thing and dance close embrace. Tango Distance and the hapless beginner would reluctantly close the gap. The instructor would then smile radiantly. Other times, the instructor would grab my arm and wrap it tightly around the hapless female, and then say "yes, yeS, yES, YES!" Clearly, Tango Distance was going to have to get a little more clever. I would close up at first, and then open up, just a bit, to do the trickier parts of the figure. The instructors were still a step ahead of me. The lady instructor demonstrated with me that there was no need to break the embrace, despite all the complicated steps.
At the practica afterwards, the newby ladies danced open embrace. One even complained about close embrace and was leaving early -- I assured her I would be happy to dance open with her. She wound up staying late and said she was glad she stayed.
Here are the goods of the night:
- DW and I are definitely doing better with our close embrace. We generally dance open, but will go close when it seems to fit the music or to finish the night.
- My plan was to go through some beginner's close embrace classes, like I did with this class. It actually went pretty well.
- There were no male newbies, but several female newbies -- they all were reluctant to do the close embrace thing -- apparently I'm not alone!
Tango Distance does Blues Close Embrace
It's not much of a story. In my Blues dancing class the instructor announced we'd be doing close embrace. Since almost all the class consists of DW and I doing the steps after the instructors demonstrate, I thought "No problem, I have this!" To my surprise, close embrace started by the female instructor walking right up to me, and pulling me right into a Blues close embrace (BTW very similar to a Tango close embrace, except you offset a bit so your right foot could step between your partner's feet). I just went with it, and half the lesson was basically a close embrace private. I haven't said anything about being hug adverse to my Blues instructors, and as she said I did well with the close embrace part I think I weathered it pretty well.
BTW, this is a point I wanted to reach -- not necessarily wanting hugs or close embrace, but able to get through it without making others around me uncomfortable.
Haha! It really is a legitimate reason though! (but I know you wouldn't actually say that to a woman
)
Tango Distance
Well-Known Member
Short scenes of Tango Distancian Evolution:
- I'm more interested in learning to walk perfectly than in learning new steps.
- I'm more interested in musicality than learning new steps.
- I had to "thank you" a lady very early in a tanda. I don't want to give details that could make it an identifiable event, but I'm sure excess alcohol consumption by her was a factor. I had thought I would never be one to end a tanda early!
- I was visiting a big city, and a practica was walking distance from my hotel. I just watched it briefly two times, and on my third visit actually participated. It was a new experience in that I danced with around six ladies without DW being there. The ladies were very good and very appreciative.
- I stopped by a Blues event that was on my way home to encourage a friend, ask instructors about their new class, and to support Blues dancing events. I had intended to stop very briefly, and maybe do one dance with my instructor. That turned into several dances with different ladies, and again DW wasn't with me. Maybe I am getting to like this dance stuff outside of DW!
- Ironically, I have had great luck doing cabeceo at Contra and Blues events -- the ladies are actually looking for dances. A Contra event might have only 5 or 6 lengthy dances, so people generally dance each dance and are very motivated to get a partner. At Tango it seems a good number of the ladies are deep in conversation and you have to walk right up to them (but always seem glad to be asked). Upon some reflection, I think some of this might be me. Some guys try to get as many dances as they can in a night, and the ladies expect them to invite. With me, I'm as likely walking outside as looking for another dance, and I have yet to accept a lady's cabeceo. If I think a lady is looking at me I generally look away -- silly I know to be shy that way. It's something to work on.
- At a Blues dance I was trying to do the "con permisso" thing, and the man asked if I wanted to dance with him! Oops!
- I was asked by a man if I wanted to dance at a Tango event.
- Something that I think makes Blues a bit easier for me is you can start with just hands and then move to a "closed" embrace (open embrace in Tango). Generally only people that know each other very well do close embrace. With Tango many people get close right away.
- I wasn't actively trying to make an algorithm, but one seems to be emerging. The more excess females (E_f) there are, the more dances I do, unless there are so many than DW is not getting dances (rare but it has happened). The more open embrace (O_e) dancers there are, the more dancing I do. The more beginners (B) there are, the more dancing I do. The more people I recognize from class, the more dancing I do (there is a surprising low conversion rate from class taker to Milonga attender in my area). The earlier (T) I get started the more dances I do. I generally don't do a 2nd Tanda with anyone but DW, so the overall number of people (N) is of course a factor. I feel an equation coming on... The purpose would be insight and not mere numbers...
Tango Distance
Well-Known Member
Touchy feely alert!
Tango Distance Unearths Root Cause?
Positive Consequences
I tend towards the nonhugging side of the spectrum. The dance thing gave rise to a lot of introspection, and reading, and writing here at DF. While I learned much about myself and others, I didn't really figure out exactly why I am a nonhugger -- the reasons I would read either didn't fit or were vague. It was still valuable to learn there are other nonhuggers, and other introverts. While visiting relatives, I suddenly saw the elephant in the room. It was always there to see, but I didn't see the obvious until it came up in a somewhat over-the-top fashion. Don't worry, it's nothing that would involve prison time for anyone. I just happened to pick up on and internalize something that I'm sure was not intended to lead to a nonhugging consequence. This realization is another step forward in my journey and helped make for better outcomes in the two following events:
I saw a new face at a class and asked her when the instructor said to practice for a song. I asked if she had any Tango experience... She had just returned from an extensive visit to Buenos Aires! She immediately pulled me into a close embrace. Uncharacteristic of me, I just went with it, figuring it was a close embrace class and it would be more trouble than it was worth explaining I didn't want to do close embrace at a close embrace class.
I did another close embrace class. The instructor helped me get a difficult step. After a while I happily exclaimed that I had it! Later I realized I had a moment just enjoying the step and was not even thinking about the close embrace thing.
Tango Distance Unearths Root Cause?
Positive Consequences
I tend towards the nonhugging side of the spectrum. The dance thing gave rise to a lot of introspection, and reading, and writing here at DF. While I learned much about myself and others, I didn't really figure out exactly why I am a nonhugger -- the reasons I would read either didn't fit or were vague. It was still valuable to learn there are other nonhuggers, and other introverts. While visiting relatives, I suddenly saw the elephant in the room. It was always there to see, but I didn't see the obvious until it came up in a somewhat over-the-top fashion. Don't worry, it's nothing that would involve prison time for anyone. I just happened to pick up on and internalize something that I'm sure was not intended to lead to a nonhugging consequence. This realization is another step forward in my journey and helped make for better outcomes in the two following events:
I saw a new face at a class and asked her when the instructor said to practice for a song. I asked if she had any Tango experience... She had just returned from an extensive visit to Buenos Aires! She immediately pulled me into a close embrace. Uncharacteristic of me, I just went with it, figuring it was a close embrace class and it would be more trouble than it was worth explaining I didn't want to do close embrace at a close embrace class.
I did another close embrace class. The instructor helped me get a difficult step. After a while I happily exclaimed that I had it! Later I realized I had a moment just enjoying the step and was not even thinking about the close embrace thing.
LOL
Yeah, that probably wouldn't have gone over too well.
I guess you're not such a bad guy after all.
newbie
Well-Known Member
How is it you were in the same class?