Ocho technique
- Thread starter jfm
- Start date
yup
because of my teacher, i almost always lead the step/pivot ochos. it gives you a LOT of opportunity to play with and vary the amount of pivot, the energy of the pivot, and the length of each step, too. incredibly fun if your follower is paying attention.
i only ever do the other ochos if i'm leading them in doubletime... then the step/pivot combo just takes too long. also, in doubletime i tend to lead them with just small steps straight forward, not diagonal, and maybe with a very small initial pivot just to indicate that i want her to do ochos (though being in cross system tends to be enough of a lead for it... or i often cheat and start with single-time ochos and switch to double)
i'll admit to being biased -- likely unreasonably -- against the milonguero style ochos. it feels like a technique that's based on the assumption that you can only take small steps in close embrace... or at least, it gives less opportunity to play with that sort of thing.
of course, i'm just assuming, because i never use that style of ocho. for those of you who do ochos that way, what sorts of things do you do to vary them up? even if it is, i probably won't lead them that way, just the same :-D
because of my teacher, i almost always lead the step/pivot ochos. it gives you a LOT of opportunity to play with and vary the amount of pivot, the energy of the pivot, and the length of each step, too. incredibly fun if your follower is paying attention.
i only ever do the other ochos if i'm leading them in doubletime... then the step/pivot combo just takes too long. also, in doubletime i tend to lead them with just small steps straight forward, not diagonal, and maybe with a very small initial pivot just to indicate that i want her to do ochos (though being in cross system tends to be enough of a lead for it... or i often cheat and start with single-time ochos and switch to double)
i'll admit to being biased -- likely unreasonably -- against the milonguero style ochos. it feels like a technique that's based on the assumption that you can only take small steps in close embrace... or at least, it gives less opportunity to play with that sort of thing.
of course, i'm just assuming, because i never use that style of ocho. for those of you who do ochos that way, what sorts of things do you do to vary them up? even if it is, i probably won't lead them that way, just the same :-D
Peaches
Well-Known Member
I've had them varied by really emphasing the uncrossing swing part (don't know how else do describe it), so that the free leg swings pretty far out and around. And, I've had them varied by making them very slow, with a seemingly-huge back cross. It's kind of fun to really feel the stretch and shift in the torso and hips, and then to feel each incremental shift of weight over the receiving foot. I'll have to pay attention and see what other ways tend to get used.
"milonguero style ochos. it feels like a technique that's based on the assumption that you can only take small steps in close embrace"
I had one class with Robert Hauk, who is based here in Portland, and specializes in "milonguero" style. Some of you may know him. This year he will be in San Diego, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, Urbana, and Atlanta. (I love his essay here http://home.teleport.com/~robhauk/navigation1.html .)
I asked about don't we always dance small steps in this style. He said, of course not, and then danced really large steps with the same embrace.
"Milonguero" is known for small steps because, we are told, it comes from dance venues that are really crowded. The small steps come from the fact that there isn't much room, and sometimes you even have to dance in place.
BUT, if there is room you can take larger steps.
I learned to dance milonga for instance in this milonguero / apilado / close embrace style, and I love really moving when there is room to do so.
Here' one "variation" for a close embrace "milonguero style" ocho.
Start from "crossed feet", the woman on your right. (Hopefully she won't cross automatically on your second step.)
You get her to move her right foot behind herself by moving the left side of your torso forward. Your torso should proceed movement by your stepping foot.
Her foot should begin moving as her torso moves backwards (the right side of her body, and her right foot moving back and behind.)
Your torso continues to rotate to your right as you step forward on your right. Your right foot lands as her right foot lands.
Now, she must put all of her weight onto that right foot, keep her weight towards you, and give a solid connection to the ground She, too, has rotated her torso to maintain a solid connection with you.
If you watch someone do this, it's pretty clear the common axis is well forward of both partner's feet.
When the man lands on his right foot he must continue to pivot towards his partner, as the torso striaghtens. The woman's torso also straightens, and you are now back in a regular, crossed feet embrace.
Both partners have to really be commited to the embrace for this to work. It's a high energy thing that you don't see too often.
Another variation would be to follow the "foot behind diagonally" with an
"amague". As the woman places her weight on the "backward diagonally stepping foot", you move straight forward as she is collecting. The foot that is in front will go straight back across the front of the now weighted foot (if you catch it early enough).
This backward movement of her foot and leg could then be reversed giving a snappy little motion. Or you could lead a weight change there and she will have crossed.
I have found that these things are not possible with a "just standing there barely touching each other" close embrace, which is why I favor apilado if I am doing close embrace.
Hopefully, this makes sense.
I had one class with Robert Hauk, who is based here in Portland, and specializes in "milonguero" style. Some of you may know him. This year he will be in San Diego, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, Urbana, and Atlanta. (I love his essay here http://home.teleport.com/~robhauk/navigation1.html .)
I asked about don't we always dance small steps in this style. He said, of course not, and then danced really large steps with the same embrace.
"Milonguero" is known for small steps because, we are told, it comes from dance venues that are really crowded. The small steps come from the fact that there isn't much room, and sometimes you even have to dance in place.
BUT, if there is room you can take larger steps.
I learned to dance milonga for instance in this milonguero / apilado / close embrace style, and I love really moving when there is room to do so.
Here' one "variation" for a close embrace "milonguero style" ocho.
Start from "crossed feet", the woman on your right. (Hopefully she won't cross automatically on your second step.)
You get her to move her right foot behind herself by moving the left side of your torso forward. Your torso should proceed movement by your stepping foot.
Her foot should begin moving as her torso moves backwards (the right side of her body, and her right foot moving back and behind.)
Your torso continues to rotate to your right as you step forward on your right. Your right foot lands as her right foot lands.
Now, she must put all of her weight onto that right foot, keep her weight towards you, and give a solid connection to the ground She, too, has rotated her torso to maintain a solid connection with you.
If you watch someone do this, it's pretty clear the common axis is well forward of both partner's feet.
When the man lands on his right foot he must continue to pivot towards his partner, as the torso striaghtens. The woman's torso also straightens, and you are now back in a regular, crossed feet embrace.
Both partners have to really be commited to the embrace for this to work. It's a high energy thing that you don't see too often.
Another variation would be to follow the "foot behind diagonally" with an
"amague". As the woman places her weight on the "backward diagonally stepping foot", you move straight forward as she is collecting. The foot that is in front will go straight back across the front of the now weighted foot (if you catch it early enough).
This backward movement of her foot and leg could then be reversed giving a snappy little motion. Or you could lead a weight change there and she will have crossed.
I have found that these things are not possible with a "just standing there barely touching each other" close embrace, which is why I favor apilado if I am doing close embrace.
Hopefully, this makes sense.
I was up in Portland and took some classes from him one evening. He was very welcoming and the people there extremely warm. This was in stark contrast to my time spent as a wallflower at a milonga the night before. Had a few dances but was mostly ignored, as were many other ladies who kept the seats near me warm. I would have been tempted to write off most of the Portland tango scene as elitist (as many of the dancers at this particular milonga seemed content to 'show out' and dance only with one another) but Robert's classes and people changed my mind. I know it's common for newcomers at milongas to be somewhat ignored, but sadly Portland was my worst experience with this, and I've been to many milongas in the US and went to milongas in Paris. (Even with a moderate language barrier I had many dances in Paris.) I was told by my coach and partner that Portland was a very friendly and advanced tango community, and I was disappointed to find that though there were some very skilled dancers there, their social skills were rather lacking. He was very surprised to learn of my experience (even though it turns out in the past another student of his had complained of being ignored at this particular milonga) but told me that he was not surprised that Robert was so welcoming. So Robert and his students sort of redeemed Portland for me. 
I do know that if I go back, I will not go to a milonga by myself. A partner is a must-have.
I do know that if I go back, I will not go to a milonga by myself. A partner is a must-have.
Sadly, I can tell you that not only have I heard the same thing from other people who came here from out of town, but I, too, see something similar from my male perspective as someone who is going on five years of consistent dancing of tango in Portland.
I can safely say that, as you get better at tango, and probably all dances, it gets harder and harder to find partners that "make it happen" with you. But tango can be such an intimate dance, especially with close embrace / apilado / milonguero style. And we don't have the universal "basic pattern" to fall back on.
And, you pretty much commit yourself to three to four dances with someone.
And from a male perspective, just yesterday a friend and I were sharing stories about how various women simply do not dance with many to most of the men in the community (even after the men have gone through several years of lessons and dancing).
To their credit many of the instructors, and the people who organize the tango festivals in town, know that they have a problem. They just haven't figured out how to solve it.
Meanwhile, I hope everyone will consider stopping in at the Sunday practica at the Viscount Dance Studios when you are in Portland. http://home.europa.com/%7Ewalsup/tango/venues.html#sunday_practica
There are no promises for any given Sunday (atttendance is lighter during the summer), but this really is a lot less formal than the milongas.
Last week I danced with a woman from Boston (among others). This week, after a few tandas with someone I've known for almost 5 years now, I danced with a (to me) very young woman who had been taking lessons for only 5 weeks, and another woman who has been coming to lessons for a while now. Bill Alsup, who is one of two regular hosts for this event, really seems to enjoy dancing with new people (usually women) along with his other duties as host.
All of you have a standing invitation to contact me if you are considering going to this practica. I will do my best to introduce you to a few people and (if you are female) dance a couple of tandas with you. And Bill and I aren't the only ones willing to dance with new people.
I'm glad that Robert and his students sort of redeemed Portland for you.
I can safely say that, as you get better at tango, and probably all dances, it gets harder and harder to find partners that "make it happen" with you. But tango can be such an intimate dance, especially with close embrace / apilado / milonguero style. And we don't have the universal "basic pattern" to fall back on.
And, you pretty much commit yourself to three to four dances with someone.
And from a male perspective, just yesterday a friend and I were sharing stories about how various women simply do not dance with many to most of the men in the community (even after the men have gone through several years of lessons and dancing).
To their credit many of the instructors, and the people who organize the tango festivals in town, know that they have a problem. They just haven't figured out how to solve it.
Meanwhile, I hope everyone will consider stopping in at the Sunday practica at the Viscount Dance Studios when you are in Portland. http://home.europa.com/%7Ewalsup/tango/venues.html#sunday_practica
There are no promises for any given Sunday (atttendance is lighter during the summer), but this really is a lot less formal than the milongas.
Last week I danced with a woman from Boston (among others). This week, after a few tandas with someone I've known for almost 5 years now, I danced with a (to me) very young woman who had been taking lessons for only 5 weeks, and another woman who has been coming to lessons for a while now. Bill Alsup, who is one of two regular hosts for this event, really seems to enjoy dancing with new people (usually women) along with his other duties as host.
All of you have a standing invitation to contact me if you are considering going to this practica. I will do my best to introduce you to a few people and (if you are female) dance a couple of tandas with you. And Bill and I aren't the only ones willing to dance with new people.
I'm glad that Robert and his students sort of redeemed Portland for you.
Peaches
Well-Known Member
Ditto. Minus the redemption.I was up in Portland and took some classes from him one evening. He was very welcoming and the people there extremely warm. This was in stark contrast to my time spent as a wallflower at a milonga the night before. Had a few dances but was mostly ignored, as were many other ladies who kept the seats near me warm. I would have been tempted to write off most of the Portland tango scene as elitist (as many of the dancers at this particular milonga seemed content to 'show out' and dance only with one another) but Robert's classes and people changed my mind. I know it's common for newcomers at milongas to be somewhat ignored, but sadly Portland was my worst experience with this, and I've been to many milongas in the US and went to milongas in Paris. (Even with a moderate language barrier I had many dances in Paris.) I was told by my coach and partner that Portland was a very friendly and advanced tango community, and I was disappointed to find that though there were some very skilled dancers there, their social skills were rather lacking. He was very surprised to learn of my experience (even though it turns out in the past another student of his had complained of being ignored at this particular milonga) but told me that he was not surprised that Robert was so welcoming. So Robert and his students sort of redeemed Portland for me.
spectator
Member
Are Tango crowds less welcoming to outsiders than other groups?
I think there is an element of playing safe to it. When I moved to a new city I went to classes for weeks and nobody invited me to practice at the practica. It wasn't because I couldn't dance well (it sounds so bad, but I am one of the better dancers, but that's because I've been doing it longer) but no one wanted to take the risk. These days I never go somewhere new alone, you need some one to show you off if you are a follower.
I think there is an element of playing safe to it. When I moved to a new city I went to classes for weeks and nobody invited me to practice at the practica. It wasn't because I couldn't dance well (it sounds so bad, but I am one of the better dancers, but that's because I've been doing it longer) but no one wanted to take the risk. These days I never go somewhere new alone, you need some one to show you off if you are a follower.
I really don't know... I've had such strange experiences when entering tango communities. When I decided to start commuting to New Orleans for milongas several people told me 'Don't go! Those guys are rude and will ignore you!' But, honestly? That has been by far one of the nicest I've ever gone to, and I drive there frequently because of this. Then you have Portland - that community had a reputation for warmth and skill, yet when I went there, the society was about as cold as the weather.
Peaches
Well-Known Member
It certainly seems that way.
The best thing I ever did was attend a "tango exchange" locally. It mixed up the tango scene a bit, which broke up some of the cliques enough to make an entrance. Also, the situation lent itself to taking a chance on new people, and getting to know new faces. Since I did that, I haven't had any problem being asked to dance. I know that I can walk into various milongas and "owe" a half-dozen people dances right away. From there, it gets easier.
The best thing I ever did was attend a "tango exchange" locally. It mixed up the tango scene a bit, which broke up some of the cliques enough to make an entrance. Also, the situation lent itself to taking a chance on new people, and getting to know new faces. Since I did that, I haven't had any problem being asked to dance. I know that I can walk into various milongas and "owe" a half-dozen people dances right away. From there, it gets easier.
Ampster
Active Member
My personal observations on why some men do not ask some women to dance:
*Disclaimer: These are my observations and my opinions alone
*Disclaimer: These are my observations and my opinions alone
- Intimidation:
- Some women are not asked to dance because the men who are in the milongas are totally intimidated by how good you look, and how good you move
- Wasn't impressed:
- Opposite of number one (see above). They saw you dance before and were not impressed by how you moved or looked
- Nobody knows you:
- People normaly go with the familiar. If you're a stranger, it will probably harder for someone to drum up courage to ask you
- Coupled with the other factors, things could get worse
- The Cliques:
- Some people in cliques will only dance within that group
- If you happened to be in a milonga that was pervaded, then you'd probably end up not being asked
- I do have a clique of my own. But, a major part of our charter is to dance with anyone at any level. We do this to hone our lead and follow skills to make any dance something beautiful. So, if your in Seattle, let me know
- The way you look:
- Be as beautiful as you can be, and match the crowds "Persona"
- Dress "Hip," or "Casual" if you're in a milonga frequeted by the Nuevo
- Dress "Elegant" if you're in a milonga frequented by the Vieja
- Be as beautiful as you can be, and match the crowds "Persona"
- Body Language:
- Sometimes, the way one projects oneself on a chair discourages men from approaching you
- Try this link: look at "How to sit..." http://tinatangos.wordpress.com/tag/etiquette-at-milongas/
- Women sit together (Strength in numbers)
- Some men would not ask you to dance because all the women are sitting in a big bunch
- They don't want to offend the others by homing in on you to dance. So, to save the others' feelings, they won't ask you, until you break away (i.e. get a drink, get a snack, come back from the lady's room, etc.)
Dave Bailey
Active Member
I guess it depends
Assuming you mean "Other groups of dancers in different forms", then I'd say no - about average I think, from the places I've been to in the UK.
Much less welcoming than Modern Jivers, probably a bit more welcoming than salseros - there probably should be a "marks out of 10" graph for this...
There's definitely a "rural / city" split, and some places in (for example) Central London are so exclusive it's scary. On the other hand, tango festivals in the UK are very friendly indeed.
Tangueros and tangueras are just people after all - and most people are friendly when you get to know them.
DavidQ
New Member
In our analysis, the primary twisting force for pivots comes from the hip rotator muscles. The obliques create a twisted torso orientation which then serves as an anchor for the hip rotators to complete the pivot. (Alternatively, we can first twist in the hip, then use the new hip-foot orientation as an anchor for the obliques to bring the torso back in line.)
[ I have a video showing all of this, plus exercises, but I do not have enough forum points to post the link. Please message me if you'd like it. On Facebook I am david.phillips.austin ]
opendoor
Forum Master
I wanted to support you and looked for the video on your FB profile. I could not find it. However, I got the impression that from a technical point of view you cannot contribute much, but rather represent an outdated phase of tango didactics. Have you done any training lately?