Open Dancing in Utah

hbetx9

Member
This thread is focused on international style. I'm wondering what the community has to say on the following issue. In Utah, many of the competitions have roughly 3 open levels: Novice, Pre-champ and Amateur (full champ). Here is the issue, not all dancers are offered at each level, in particular only 2 of the 5 are offered, and in pre-champ only 3 of the 5. In contrast, many competitions on the east coast offer (and require) 4 if not all 5 at any open level (usually just two divisions, pre-champ and champ).

I think this frustrates many dancers, and sends the wrong message during training, namely that either some dances are harder or are not as important. It creates and imbalance (for example, in the standard only swing dances are offered at Novice, so they don't practice Tango for example). Many couples double register, but I don't think this is an adequate solution. So here is my question to any from Utah, Why do this? Is anyone interested in changing this paradigm? What support is needed? Thoughts? Feelings?
 
Not from Utah, but based on my observation from both the west and the east coast,

USA Dance events has three open level: Novice (3 dances), preChamp(4 dances), Champ(5 dances).

College comps has two open levels: preChamp and Champ. They typcically cover all 5 dances in each level, but they are split as separate events (Eg: WQ as one event, FT as another event, VW as a third event) instead of one event.
 
You're correct Muyv, the issue I guess is that in Utah its (2 dances), PreChamp (3 dances) and Champ (5 dances). To my mind, this is a bit harsh and I think not a great idea. Is there anyone of the forums from Utah that can comment as to either Why this is the case, or maybe more importantly, why should it continue this way?
 
It does seem like the Utah competitions all have two dances in Novice and three in PreChamp. I personally don't think you can do much about it. But it's pretty easy to move up to the championship level, do all five dances, and do well on the local scene. You can also attend competitions in Las Vegas and So California. Its interesting to go back and forth between the Utah and out-of-state comps.
 
hbetx9, what is the organizational affiliation of these comps where you're seeing this event arrangement?
 
Competitions in Utah are virtually only affiliated with NDCA regulations. The NDCA rulebook states

"2.Novice. Open Syllabus. It is recommended that “Novice” competitions generally be restricted to two (2) of the allowed dances for each style.

3. Pre-Championship. Open Syllabus. It is recommended that “Pre-Championship” competitions generally be restricted to three or four (3-4) of the allowed dances for each style.

4. Open Amateur. Open syllabus. All of the dances in each style must be done in this category in all rounds, and in the order prescribed." (Article X Section B, #2-4).

This is usually in response to the heavy hand of BYU's dancesport factory. What non-Utah dancers don't realize is that a lot of dancers switch partners with the end of an academic calendar year. Some graduate and there are always new bottom feeders into the Novice/PC ranks. With this heavy turnover in partnerships and a focus of preparing for the only two major competitions in Utah (BYU Dancesport in November and NDCA Nationals in March), most inexperienced dancers can only prepare two to three dances in a semester.

In response to the OP's question: As recent as two years ago, Pre Champ competition in Utah from January to April always had four dances. As long as I've been in Utah (ten years), novice has only ever had two dances (waltz and quickstep).

Skilled Utah dancers seem to specialize or do ten dance. Many also do American Smooth (BYU is, in my opinion, the training ground for the best new rising star pro smooth dancers. If Travis and Jaimee Tuft win RS Pro at USDC, that will mark the fourth time in five years that the RS Pro Champions have a BYU connection). But I digress...

Utah also has a wide network of local one day competitions hosted by the area high schools. These competitions generally mimic the entry requirements of BYU because they all feed into BYU's NDCA-sanctioned competitions.

So consider the following:
1) The average partnership lifespan in Utah is probably six to eight months. While many couples have danced together for years, the majority of open competitors don't make it to the one year mark. Dancers then have to start over with a new partner, master technique, get new choreography, and keep up with their school work. That's really hard to do in ten weeks.

2) The OP suggests that Utah doesn't emphasize certain dances, such as tango. However, much of the BYU-organized competitions actually consist of one-dance syllabus events for each style and category. A beginning standard dancer learns their first tango steps and competes after four months of dancing, sometimes less. That is true for both American and International styles. And, more specifically, tango is always included as a dance in the pre-champ category in Utah.

3) As far as the Viennese Waltz and the Jive, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find either of those dances competed at a pre-champ level anywhere (I have seen some jive though at other comps). So the assertion that Utah values some dances over others doesn't hold much weight, IMO.

4) Many of the open competitors in Utah are also on the BYU ballroom dance company or other formation teams which require significant time outside of regular partner training, further limiting their ability to learn and master multiple dances.

5) The only reason that the NDCA Nationals no longer have four dances in pre-champ is not because the organizers are trying to emphasize certain dances over others, but simply because they have added other events and only have a limited time frame in the arena. Adding in the U21 categories last year forced the organizers to clip one dance from the adult pre champ, the youth pre champ, and others, so they took out Foxtrot. They have also had to respond to a dramatic increase in the number of youth formation teams who compete at that comp. They added another day (Wednesday) to accommodate that, but the addition of other events has crowded the schedule. In short, something's gotta give...

Ideas to remedy the problem:

1. Utah could use the pre-novice category. Only problem with that is the NDCA comps don't have room in the schedule for these events AND novice AND pre champ AND Championship. And since most of the participants in the NDCA comps are local, they will train to match that schedule.

2. Utah could actually enforce age and proficiency requirements. Forcing people to move up through the ranks would open up the competitive field and thus make double entries in novice and pre-champ more viable for healthy competition and measuring progress.

3. Utah could finally organize a viable USA Dance chapter and start a competition that competes with NDCA. But given the current political climate between those two organizations and the fact that Lee Wakefield is the Ballroom Director for the NDCA I don't see this happening soon.

4. Someone in Utah could organize another NDCA comp. Heaven forbid that we organize the Utah Star Ball, encourage professional development, training, and competition and create a viable pro/am climate in this state....Another comp could offer additional dances that the OP is seeking.

I could go on and on, but the bottom line is that Utah organizers aren't promoting certain dances more than others but they are promoting certain dancers more than others. The NDCA comps in Utah are organized by BYU. Most of the competitors in open categories at these comps are BYU students. BYU students and faculty have significant constraints on their time and face heavy turnover. And since Utah doesn't have USA Dance or professional competitions, very few amateur dancers are going to dish out the $$$ to go to those comps unless they are already competing in the full championship category, in which case the OP's point is moot.

PHEW. I think I am done now. If you ever want to talk about Utah dance culture, feel free to PM me.
 
Thanks all for the discussion. As W/T/FT/VW said, most of the competitions are BYU or affiliated/similar programs. Thank you again for the indepth explanation, but I don't agree with some of the logic you stated. For example, you said that limiting to two dances in Novice is a result of frequent partner shift. I don't think the partner shift in Utah is greater than anywhere else (many places have frequent partner shifts!). Also, at least on the east coast, Jive and Vw are offered at most Pre-champ competitions.

[[ From W/T/FT/VW ]] Many of the open competitors in Utah are also on the BYU ballroom dance company or other formation teams which require significant time outside of regular partner training, further limiting their ability to learn and master multiple dances.

Well I don't think the individual competition events should be negatively effected by this. That simply isn't fair to people not interested in formation teams.


Also, sorry for not formatting this better, the quote button didn't work and I didn't have time to figure out why.

However, there is an easy solution that you overlooked. I'm suggesting offering all dances in Novice, not making Novice a 5-dance event. Offer three events in Novice, two 2-dance events and one solo. Then at pre-champ offer two events, (either 3-2 or 4-1). This way, competitors that *want* to dance all the dances may and not have to face upgraded fierce competition just to compete a foxtrot, and those competitors that don't want to put together 5 routines don't have to. Yes Tango is always a dance in the pre-champ category, but let's say you dance Novice for 1-year (only working on WQ, so that's a lot of swing) then Pre-champ for 1-year (so adding T), then you're telling me that you haven't literally taken a lesson in 2 years on either F or Vw, and now are stepping into it. I'm saying this is lopsided, unnecessary and easily remedied.

[[ From W/T/FT/VW ]]] Ideas to remedy the problem:

1. Utah could use the pre-novice category. Only problem with that is the NDCA comps don't have room in the schedule for these events AND novice AND pre champ AND Championship. And since most of the participants in the NDCA comps are local, they will train to match that schedule.

I don't think a Pre-novice category is neither an effective nor implementable solution. It would make comes run longer, everyone would just double reg and we would still have dance restrictions across the levels in question (Novice, Pre-champ).


2. Utah could actually enforce age and proficiency requirements. Forcing people to move up through the ranks would open up the competitive field and thus make double entries in novice and pre-champ more viable for healthy competition and measuring progress.

I'm given to understand there is almost no such requirement. Especially in the valley where there are only 2 NDCA comps every year (both BYU).

3. Utah could finally organize a viable USA Dance chapter and start a competition that competes with NDCA. But given the current political climate between those two organizations and the fact that Lee Wakefield is the Ballroom Director for the NDCA I don't see this happening soon.

I'm really not suggesting this!

4. Someone in Utah could organize another NDCA comp. Heaven forbid that we organize the Utah Star Ball, encourage professional development, training, and competition and create a viable pro/am climate in this state....Another comp could offer additional dances that the OP is seeking.

nor this!


Let me summarize because I think this is very simple but touchy. I don't see any reason all the dances couldn't be offered (broken up into events) across the board in all open levels. This is a minor change, but would make a lot of the competitors much happier (I've talked to a lot of them), but everyone is so afraid to make waves. I don't see this as a wave, I see it as a salient suggestion to improve the dancing in Utah. This does not effect any other levels, nor events (formation team) and does not shake down the whole institution, it just gives novice competitors a chance to compete foxtrot if they want to, without having to go against the very top in the valley. That seams to me to be reasonable. As for making that change, I couldn't say I would know where to begin (except maybe starting a discussion here). I do thank you W/T/FT/VW for your detailed discussion, but I remain unconvinced of many points. Am I missing something?
 
NDCA comps in CA have 3 dances (W/F/Q) in Novice. They also hold Pre-novice categories (W/Q) with an optional (F/T). Prechamp has 4 dances (W/F/T/Q). They do not offer all the possible dances in all the levels. I've only seen that offered in the college comps.

The only reason I can see them cutting out a dance is that there are so many entries in the competition that adding on extra dances could extend the entire competition by a significant amount of time, especially if there are multiple heats per dance per level.
 
Well DBK, that is all part of the job I suppose :), but its high on my list to return! As for Gorme, that sounds great, so Pre-champ has 4 dances in two events. That's perfectly acceptable as not much is lost by omitting the Vw, and to boot those are NDCA, so I repeat why can't the Utah valley do this?
 
hbetx9, as stated previously, the single primary reason the dances in most UT events are the way they are is because they are NDCA affiliated! You want to change the dances in the events to USA Dance style? Increase USA Dance penetration.
 

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