Peace out

[lucia_l]

Steve,
It's hard to say. There are a few who pull before I've gotten my weight actually anchored on the 6-- but that's not really what I'm complaining about. That could be me anyway-- I'm not really great at WCS. My husband would go alone while I tutored.

But I'd say some of them seem to skip both the 5 and 6 entirely. It's not the majority by any means.

My husband has commented on some of the follows too. He has the impression that there is a subset of people who learned by arriving, never taking lessons, watching and then imitating what they think they see.

It's a plausible theory. There are beginning and intermediate lessons before the social. About half the crowd goes to the group lessons-- even quite a few of the better dancers take intermediate lessons. And I can say the "non-anchoring" guys are people I've never seen taking a lesson. Mind you, some of the people I've never seen in group lessons are excellent. But there may be a subset who just tried to "learn by watching" and they don't quite grasp "the anchor", didn't stand there and count while watching and just seem to want to do the flashier 'groovy' bits.

 

[bry_dancer]

It is a feature of life that some events are sort of "reportable" and some are "every day" "what is there to say" type events. Competitions and showcases are easy to highlight. We can tell people we are preparing, going, how we placed, why we placed as we did, who else was there, what the cool new fashions were. The events "sparkle". People who do these thigns are going to post.

Meanwhile, my husband and I got to social dances regularly-- nearly every weekend. But there isn't much to "highlight". I went to West Coast Wednesday this week. Danced WCS with my husband, four other guys. There is a decent balance of men/women. Watched some of the really good Westies-- as always, I'm in awe. Got tired. Went home. It was fun. If you live in the West Burbs of Chicago and like West Coast, I can recommend it.

This 100%. I do a lot more social wcs dancing than competitive ballroom dancing these days and am posting way less because there's just less to say. It's usually really fun and inexpensive. But kind of like a book where there is no conflict it's less interesting to write about when everything is mostly positive and working.

Also, I can second that WCS Wed in the Chicago area is amazing. Great mix of leads/follows of all diff levels. Ironically I see the same things with new follows that @lucia_l is describing with new leads. The biggest sign to me of someone new is lack of dance connection and "charging the 1" before being led. It's probably because when WCS is done the Westie way it can feel like dancing just behind the beat compared to other dances. That said, everyone has to start somewhere and I enjoy dancing with brand new people as well as experienced ones.

 

[lucia_l]

. The biggest sign to me of someone new is lack of dance connection and "charging the 1" before being led.

My husband didn't use that term, but it matches what he says he feels. The follow moves aggressively toward the lead on 1 and 2 rather than wait for the connection and move "reluctantly".

The event is still enjoyable. I'm obviously not normally going to post here to let people know that a couple of guys at a WCS social dance don't let me anchor! It's not really news and not that interesting. Also, if I'm correct they don't take lessons, likely not fixable.

It's not like the time one guy decided to join the beginner practica, pretend he's a teacher helper volunteering tips, and oh... was barefoot. He was "helping" so much the teacher kicked him out. Did he have connection? No. He did not have connection. That was sort of potentially reportable.

 

[opendoor]

..he says he feels. The follow moves aggressively toward the lead on 1 and 2 rather than wait for the connection and move "reluctantly"...

Interesting topic and I had already made myself unpopular in the tango forum when I wrote that it bothers me when followers hear or interpret the beat independently. I (lead) also dance the following role. And as a follower, I turn off my ears and concentrate entirely on the lead as a music source, lucia_l. Conversely, as a leader, I expect that a follow does not contradict my timing and my interpretation of the rhythm..

 

[Steve Pastor]

Getting pretty West Coast specific, so I hope you all will follow to the Swing section.

West Coast Swing - leading technique and musicality

This is from a post by OpenDoor, copied from another thread to have this discussion in a thread of its own. Western Swing / West Coast Swing was described as a "..dance with subtle use of pressure and resistance in its execution.” in 1960 I started learning WCS in 2021 and completed this...

www.dance-forums.com

 

[lucia_l]

Interesting topic and I had already made myself unpopular in the tango forum when I wrote that it bothers me when followers hear or interpret the beat independently. I (lead) also dance the following role. And as a follower, I turn off my ears and concentrate entirely on the lead as a music source, lucia_l. Conversely, as a leader, I expect that a follow does not contradict my timing and my interpretation of the rhythm..

As a follow, will follow a leader who dances to beat that actually differs from the music, but I'm not going to want to dance with him if I can avoid it. People who are unmusical are no fun to dance with.

The issues BryDancer and I discussed aren't really about hearing a different beat. The follow charging the lead and the lead not letting the follow anchoring isn't about hearing the beat. It's about not understsanding the need for connection. The same is true about letting the follow anchor.

Beyond that, it's actually a sort of rule in WCS that the lead is supposed to wait for the follow to anchor. (Well, if anything can be said to be a rule in WCS.) To some extent, the lead is supposed to stand there like a mope if she doesn't anchor. Of course he won't if he observes he's invited a dancer who never anchoers... but, in theory, he's supposed to. Because an "away" connections gets formed or solidified during the anchor and you sort of need a push or pull connection to convey information about direction. If it's not there, the follow can't really feel the initialtion of the lead nor when to change from moving forward to back. (Follows who charge the lead also don't understand the importance of the "away" connection during the "1 2" of any "1 3 &4 5&6. )

TikTok may not inform dancers of this convention of who sort of "controls" anchoring, just like it doesn't emphasize connection generally.

I'm also not talking about the lead wanting me to have anchored at a different time-- the lead isn't allowing me to anchor at all. Some seem to have cut out steps from conventional patterns.

Just because someone is a lead doesn't mean they dictate everything. (The follows who are charging are probably not anchoring.)

 

[Bailango]

Conversely, as a leader, I expect that a follow does not contradict my timing and my interpretation of the rhythm..

People who are unmusical are no fun to dance with.

Some seem to have cut out steps from conventional patterns.

Just because someone is a lead doesn't mean they dictate everything. (The follows who are charging are probably not anchoring.)

We should not confuse someone being a bad dancer from someone whose interpretation of music is different.

Bad dancers have not grasped sufficient skills and technique. Or their skills and technique are not good enough yet for social dancing. They disrupt their partner’s dancing. Both leader or follower can be a bad dancer.

If sufficiently skilled dancer there is a question of dance compatibility. Not everyone is compatible to dance with.

If follower’s interpretation of music doesn’t disrupt my dancing but adds to it is a delight. I don’t want to be alone who dictates what interpretation or rhythm or melody to emphasize since it is a partner dance. I find dancing more enjoyable when a follower is active. I am not a follower. If I were, I would find @opendoor ‘s assertion to be very dictatorial and controlling I am very much against that philosophy in partner dancing. For me once lead has been accepted, it is entirely to the follower. I will wait for the right time for resolution so that I can then start the next lead. If I get a feeling the follower wants a constant lead. I will do so. That feels like follower doesn’t want to take agency for dancing and wants me to move them all the time. It is a bit tiring to dance with followers that requires leader to move them all the time.

 

[raindance]

Interesting topic and I had already made myself unpopular in the tango forum when I wrote that it bothers me when followers hear or interpret the beat independently. I (lead) also dance the following role. And as a follower, I turn off my ears and concentrate entirely on the lead as a music source, lucia_l. Conversely, as a leader, I expect that a follow does not contradict my timing and my interpretation of the rhythm..

Expecting followers to turn off their ears is unrealistic in my opinion. If you really want that as a leader, why not have the leader wear headphones so that only the leader can hear the music, and the follower just follows the leader's movements without hearing the music at all??

Bailango's explanation above seems to me a much nicer and more realistic way for leaders and followers to work together with each other and the music.

 

[opendoor]

...find @opendoor ‘s assertion to be very dictatorial and controlling I am very much against that philosophy in partner dancing. For me once lead..

Me too. I can also lead cooperatively, alternately or playfully. And that's the case in 90% of the dances because I find 90% of the music boring. But if the music pulls me out of my seat, then I want to be the director or dictator on the dance floor.

 

[lucia_l]

We should not confuse someone being a bad dancer from someone whose interpretation of music is different.

I agree. But there are leads who just don't hear the beat at all. It's not an issue of "interpretation". Trying to just take close my ears and follow the leader who is not dancing to the beat of the music in any way shape or form is exhausting. The mental stress... not fun. This is not the purpose of social dancing!

It's a bit like trying to Waltz when Paso Doble music is thumping. I can learn lessons with "wrong" music playing, ignore it and just follow my teacher. Unless it's Paso Doble and we are trying to do smooth. When Paso comes on, my rhythm teacher just decrees "time for Chacha Doble", which is oddly doable. But Bolero with Paso Music... Arghhh!!!

Bad dancers have not grasped sufficient skills and technique. Or their skills and technique are not good enough yet for social dancing. They disrupt their partner’s dancing. Both leader or follower can be a bad dancer.

Yep. In all dances, a lead who over estimates himself can decide to do things that are above his own skill level and inflict them on the poor follow. In many, the follow can't do that-- In Waltz lead can just decide "Yeah...she thinks she's above gold. But I'm going to stick to left and right turns and a few twinkles...." (The bad follow can still do things to the lead, but she can't take quite as much control.)

In WCS... well since the follow is allowed to steal the lead, and both get to improvise to some extent, leads too can be subject to people who suddenly insist on "leading" something they don't really know how to do and who do it with no connection. I have no idea how you guys deal with that-- probably about the way we follows deal with guys who insist on retrying their advanced steps a fourth time even though we fumbled it the first time they lead it, and continued to fumble it.

If sufficiently skilled dancer there is a question of dance compatibility. Not everyone is compatible to dance with.

Sure. But if they are ok, you can at least make it through 1 dance without feeling totally stressed!

If follower’s interpretation of music doesn’t disrupt my dancing but adds to it is a delight. I don’t want to be alone who dictates what interpretation or rhythm or melody to emphasize since it is a partner dance. I find dancing more enjoyable when a follower is active. I am not a follower. If I were, I would find @opendoor ‘s assertion to be very dictatorial and controlling I am very much against that philosophy in partner dancing. For me once lead has been accepted, it is entirely to the follower. I will wait for the right time for resolution so that I can then start the next lead.

Which is sort of one of the reasons the "rule" is you wait for the follow to anchor. In principle, in WCS, the follow could insert something "groovy". One of the signals she's done "groovin'" is she anchors.

I don't. I ain't that good in WCS! Heck.... one guy tried to do a thing that encourages improve... and he kinda complained that was to "offering" me take over and do what I want to do. And evidently, in his mind, I MUST suddenly do some sort of "grooving" thing for a few measures. I am not good enough to do, and for now, don't want to. I feel stupid. (Plus, honestly, I couldn't sense the lead that was supposed to suggest "you may take over". I could just see he went straight into what he would do if I did start to "grove". So... as far as I could tell, that was a visual lead. Could of course be me being insensitive... but still. It's hard to start groving when you don't realize the "invitation" until the lead was doing it.)

I told him my choice when "invited" was to do what i wanted to do-- which was go straight to the "finish the step" thing. (This is, after all, also allowed.)

If I get a feeling the follower wants a constant lead. I will do so.

Yay!!!

That feels like follower doesn’t want to take agency for dancing and wants me to move them all the time. It is a bit tiring to dance with followers that requires leader to move them all the time.

I don't want the lead to move me. My husband has described follow who want that and also follows who rest their full body weight on you-- like they must be trying to rest their feet. That's usually in smooth. The follow isn't going to put her full weight on you in WCS. But she might not move past you once she's past you. (I only figured that out recently. I did't expect the lead to move me. But I didn't realize the "be reluctant"... then not part for a while.)

 

[opendoor]

..leads who just don't hear the beat at all... Trying to just take close my ears and follow the leader who is not dancing to the beat of the music... is exhausting.. mental stress... not fun. This is not the purpose of social dancing..

But there is also social dancing at a high level. I asked alexandra in the musicality thread why she doesn't take part in nationwide social meetings, encuentros, marathons or festivals where the best social dancers meet. Social dancing always had a tendency to segregate and to form cliques. Many women in my cohort no longer go to socials in my hometown. They drive or fly to those events where they get their money's worth.

 

[lucia_l]

Many women in my cohort no longer go to socials in my hometown. They drive or fly to those events where they get their money's worth.

Sure. If the local men aren't pleasant and fun to dance with, some women will drive or fly elsewhere. As I wrote, "Trying to just take close my ears and follow the leader who is not dancing to the beat of the music... is exhausting.. mental stress... not fun." Honestly, if the lead is on the beat in any way shape or form that can be called "interpretation" I should be able to listen to the music and also feel the lead's motion.

I'm not a great musician. But I played flute in band. I used to sing in choirs. I know the woodwinds, brass, percussion can all be emphasizing different things in the same piece. Still, we all follow the conductor who sets the beat-- not any of us. If I actually have to close my ears to match a lead who is dancing to an entirely different drum compared to the music, that's not a good sign and it's not fun.

If I wanted to very much wanted to dance, and all I could find locally is leads who make dancing stressful, I would try to find another venue. I might fly or drive. Fortunately, in my vicinity, I find there are always a fair number of leads who don't make dancing stressful. For example: I've only danced a few times with Bry_Dancer, among other things I don't go to all that many WCS socials. He does not make dancing stressful! He lets me anchor. I'm not the greatest at WCS, but I hope I don't charge the lead. I definitely don't try to "steal the lead", because I'm honestly not able to do it yet.

If tons of local leads made dancing stressful and I wanted a particular dance type a lot, I'd drive or fly somewhere else.

 

[Steve Pastor]

"away" connections

Any physicists out there?
Is it correct that an away force is properly referred to as tension in physics?
I always wondered why Skippy Blair used the term leverage for that away thing in an anchor.

 

[lucia_l]

Any physicists out there?
Is it correct that an away force is properly referred to as tension in physics?

In engineering mechanics, tension would be a "pull"-- so "away". Ropes can be in tension, they can't be in compression (because they collapse.)

I always wondered why Skippy Blair used the term leverage for that away thing in an anchor.

No idea! Why some words get adapted in different context can be a mystery. I don't seen any force multiplication in the "anchor".

 

[David_In_CA]

I always wondered why Skippy Blair used the term leverage for that away thing in an anchor.

I do not think you are alone in that regard.