Physical limitations and tango

[nucat78]

Just as a general suggestion, have you tried plain walking? Not power walking or earth shoes or anything like that, just walking with shoulders back, head up. Also, take the stairs instead of the elevator. DW has started yoga and says it helps her back immensely (or at least it helps for a couple days before it starts bothering her again).

A couple of pretty overweight people who had trouble with ballroom switched to dancing strictly tango and don't even break a sweat now. Not sure if they're in better shape now or if their tango is that much less strenuous.

Dunno abt strength training.

 

[fischflosse]

To adequately answer this, we'd need to know what limits you are hitting in tango, that cross training might help with. Unless your goal is to be a performer, tango doesn't require a really high level of fitness (even I can do it). Tango is as much cerebral as it is physical

I don't doubt there's a psychological aspect. But for me personally, it is pretty demanding physically. Not the same way as running or deadlifting might be, to be sure. But keeping good posture and being on axis on 4-inch stilettos while twisting, turning, and basically doing lunges on the balls of your feet? Not so easy. Don't get me wrong, tango shoes look fantastic, but I think they really put the follower in a mechanically disadvantageous position.

I have a whole laundry list of things that I think might improve my tango. Here's some of them:

- foot and ankle strengthening and stretching exercises. Because really, when you look at the skeleton of the foot, it's obvious that the heel is the strongest part and the toes are pretty small and frail. Yet a lot of people tell me to "massage the floor with my toes"... I'm reading up on ballet training for this (suggestions welcome!), since it seems they would have good progressions to lead you into dancing en pointe.

- hip mobility, because how much I can extend the leg depends on my hip range of motion. It's really easy to compensate from the lower back when the hip socket is stiff, which leads to a lot of lower back pain.

- lat and oblique strengthening. I've been struggling with pivots for a long time and I still never feel stable and confident in them. Trying to piece together which muscles generate that rotational motion is pretty much a guess, since I have no training in anatomy or body mechanics, but for now I'm guessing lats and obliques would be important.

- posterior chain in general (hamstrings, glutes, back, calves etc). Because I sit at work, I think I spend a lot of time in flexion. People in the fitness industry believe this leads to tight and overactive hip flexors, rectus abdominus, pecs etc, and weak posterior chain in the general population. Since followers mostly walk backwards, I figure the stronger the posterior chain, the more stable and stronger the walk.

- thoracic mobility. Oh boy. This annoys me a lot. Dissociation is such a big part of tango, yet I think a lot of us are very stiff in the upper back and have very limited range of motion there. But if I don't dissociate enough or if I'm not comfortable in that end range of motion, it throws me off axis or it forces me to disconnect from my partner (impossible when in close embrace; there I just suffer ). I think many people, myself included, push for dissociation by getting some of it from the lower back. The problem is, this hurts the lower back. There's strong consensus in the fitness industry (see Dr. Stuart McGill's work) that the lumbar region should be a region of stability, and flexion and rotation should come from the thoracic region.

Phew... Turned a little ranty there, sorry... That's actually a shortened list of my hypotheses and speculations. I wish someone had an actual anatomic guide to tango. Metaphoric cues from instructors are ok, but I think I could work much more efficiently towards my goal if I knew what I was doing.

 

[jantango]

Get in shape to dance

Toothlesstiger made an important point. Many who take dance classes do so to enjoy movement. However, unless the body is in shape, it can't always move the way it wants.

Adults who take up tango when they engage in no other physical activities are faced with a challenge. That's probably one reason so many teachers are holding technique workshops to teach nondancers how to train their bodies for dance.

Last week I met a woman from the USA who is here to dance in the milongas. She started dance late in life and knows her body is in no shape to dance. Exercise strengthens the body for dancing and keeps it flexible. If you don't walk regularly in daily life, how can you expect to dance well?

I take exercise for granted and have danced all my life. If you don't use it, you lose it. My exercise routine is a combination of yoga, Pilates (which is based on yoga) and ballet barre. I don't have a car in BsAs, so I do lots of walking.

 

[fischflosse]

Just as a general suggestion, have you tried plain walking? Not power walking or earth shoes or anything like that, just walking with shoulders back, head up. Also, take the stairs instead of the elevator. DW has started yoga and says it helps her back immensely (or at least it helps for a couple days before it starts bothering her again).

Yup, sounds like sound advice . I do try to work on my posture, but I don't find it as straightforward as keeping the shoulders back and the head up. Pulling the shoulders back obviously is the first thing people do to fix posture, but I think there's good reason to think that's not ideal. I've been working on cues like "put your shoulder blades into your back pockets". But really, I think bad posture often comes from muscle imbalances, so I'm trying to figure out what's weak and what's tight that's leading to my posture.

I've tried yoga and I don't think it's for me at this point. I'm not comfortable doing yoga in a room full of people with little to no instructor attention, and with instructors not necessarily being educated and certified in body mechanics. Yoga is not for everyone, just like running is not for everyone. I am by no means an expert, but I can spot obviously bad form when I see it, and there is SO much of it in the classes I've been to, it's a bit scary.

 

[sixela]

I don't doubt there's a psychological aspect. But for me personally, it is pretty demanding physically. Not the same way as running or deadlifting might be, to be sure. But keeping good posture and being on axis on 4-inch stilettos while twisting, turning, and basically doing lunges on the balls of your feet? Not so easy.

Only practice helps there, until your muscle memory does the rest. But that only 'fixes' itself if there are no flaws in your posture to correct (and if you have a good embrace with your dance partners). You _do_ need to be able to relax (in particular, relax the upper body and dissociate between ribcage and hips), and lots of things can go wrong there (often it won't even be your fault, especially in smaller tango scenes where all leaders have the same defects).

Don't get me wrong, tango shoes look fantastic, but I think they really put the follower in a mechanically disadvantageous position.

Not with a good leader and a good connection --when the leader actually helps you be comfortable. If he pulls you up or doesn't let you adapt your height to make the steps he leads be your natural step size, yes, you're at a disadvantage. But ideally that shouldn't happen.

Dissociation is such a big part of tango, yet I think a lot of us are very stiff in the upper back and have very limited range of motion there.

But again it's possible that the particular embrace you end up in is making things harder (if e.g. you have a leader who bolts down your ribcage by grabbing the far end of it with his hand and locking it, instead of allowing that hand to just be where it is and connecting with your upper body through his upper arm, there's very little you'll be able to do). Sometimes it's not 'just you' in isolation.

It often takes years to actually make the puzzle fit. You might, if you can, try to explore milongas to see if there's variability in the embraces leaders offer, or you might from time to time want to take lessons from teachers with an obviously different style than that you're used to (and for the basics, not the look-how-complicated-a-sequence-I-can-do stuff). It will give you a larger universe of possible kinematics solutions to different problems.

 

[dchester]

I don't doubt there's a psychological aspect. But for me personally, it is pretty demanding physically. Not the same way as running or deadlifting might be, to be sure. But keeping good posture and being on axis on 4-inch stilettos while twisting, turning, and basically doing lunges on the balls of your feet? Not so easy. Don't get me wrong, tango shoes look fantastic, but I think they really put the follower in a mechanically disadvantageous position.

I have a whole laundry list of things that I think might improve my tango. Here's some of them:

- foot and ankle strengthening and stretching exercises. Because really, when you look at the skeleton of the foot, it's obvious that the heel is the strongest part and the toes are pretty small and frail. Yet a lot of people tell me to "massage the floor with my toes"... I'm reading up on ballet training for this (suggestions welcome!), since it seems they would have good progressions to lead you into dancing en pointe.

- hip mobility, because how much I can extend the leg depends on my hip range of motion. It's really easy to compensate from the lower back when the hip socket is stiff, which leads to a lot of lower back pain.

- lat and oblique strengthening. I've been struggling with pivots for a long time and I still never feel stable and confident in them. Trying to piece together which muscles generate that rotational motion is pretty much a guess, since I have no training in anatomy or body mechanics, but for now I'm guessing lats and obliques would be important.

- posterior chain in general (hamstrings, glutes, back, calves etc). Because I sit at work, I think I spend a lot of time in flexion. People in the fitness industry believe this leads to tight and overactive hip flexors, rectus abdominus, pecs etc, and weak posterior chain in the general population. Since followers mostly walk backwards, I figure the stronger the posterior chain, the more stable and stronger the walk.

- thoracic mobility. Oh boy. This annoys me a lot. Dissociation is such a big part of tango, yet I think a lot of us are very stiff in the upper back and have very limited range of motion there. But if I don't dissociate enough or if I'm not comfortable in that end range of motion, it throws me off axis or it forces me to disconnect from my partner (impossible when in close embrace; there I just suffer ). I think many people, myself included, push for dissociation by getting some of it from the lower back. The problem is, this hurts the lower back. There's strong consensus in the fitness industry (see Dr. Stuart McGill's work) that the lumbar region should be a region of stability, and flexion and rotation should come from the thoracic region.

Phew... Turned a little ranty there, sorry... That's actually a shortened list of my hypotheses and speculations. I wish someone had an actual anatomic guide to tango. Metaphoric cues from instructors are ok, but I think I could work much more efficiently towards my goal if I knew what I was doing.

There's lots of stuff in here and I'll likely to forget to comment on some of it at first, but let me start with, you don't need to have 4 inch heels. There are plenty of nice shoes with 2 1/2 to 3 inch heels. My wife doesn't have any shoes with 4 inch heels, and she has quite a few pairs. What can I say, I spoil her, (even if she doesn't think so).

The second thought that jumped out at me, stretching / flexibility exercises seems like what you need. You mentioned that you tried yoga and didn't like it. I will point out that there are several different styles of yoga, so possibly one of the other styles might be more to your liking. Some styles focus more on poses and meditation, some focus on stretching (possibly in a hot room), some styles focus more on building strength and stamina, and so on.

As others have said, walking is really good, and of course any aerobic exercise.

Twisting (disassociation) is something that can be practiced anywhere, without going to a gym. I'm not a slim person at all, but I can twist enough (now), to do what I need for tango. The same applies to balance exercises (standing on one foot, then as you get better at it, standing on the ball off your foot, sometimes keeping to free leg still, and then moving it around in various ways).

You also mentioned something about pivots (not feeling stable and questions about generating the motion). You might try using your hips more, to get the momentum going. Also, try slightly bending your knees (if you're not doing so). It would be good to hear from other followers on things they do specific to pivoting.

Also remember, it takes time (and practice) to get good at this. So don't spend so much time cross training, that you forget to go out and dance.

 

[TangoTricia]

Preparation for dance

Working to correct an unaligned posture is really difficult by yourself. We get used to our misalignments, so they become habits which feel 'right' so that real alignment initially feels wrong.

If this is a major issue for you, you might find alexander technique or feldenkrais useful, to help you find your own alignment.

 

[opendoor]

Please remove

 

[opendoor]

...already started moving. I'm following a full-body weight training program, hitting the gym 3 times a week and doing some conditioning and mobility work on the side...

Great! sounds like a sensible, well rounded program..

Hi fischflosse, first: welcome here. Second: I dont think so!

...laundry list of things that I think might improve my tango...

- foot and ankle strengthening and stretching exercises..
- hip mobility..
- lat and oblique strengthening..
- posterior chain in general..
- thoracic mobility ...But if I don't dissociate enough .. it throws me off axis or it...

Sorry fischflosse, all that sounds like glossy terms taken from polished commercials for home trainers or the like. None of these will help you on the dance floor! I felt so comfortable with my range of dissociation, and it never threw me out of axis. Finally I got severe problems with my knees. You cannot work on these items on your own! I fooled myself. It took several years and a former ballerina to understand how my body evaded the pressure and compensated what he didnt want to do. So what I mean is: you need professional help and an independent eye.

Aerobics for endurance, resistance training for strength, yoga or pilates for flexibility and core.

..I'm now a little weary of these super popular approaches.

These arent new approaches and I appreciate their current popularity. Pilates f.i. was a martial arts trainer for policemen in my hometown, 90 yrs ago. His ability to analyze the body motion in detail became that famous that he was asked for a special training program for ballet dancers. For me there is nothing better around than his concept. But it is complicated and you need the ability to read and to understand. And if you want to do some strenght training (dont know why at all) use Pilates machines for ballet dancers. Gyrotonic machines will work as well.

 

[bordertangoman]

eat healthily too; feed muscles, bones and joints....

 

[fischflosse]

Working to correct an unaligned posture is really difficult by yourself. We get used to our misalignments, so they become habits which feel 'right' so that real alignment initially feels wrong.

If this is a major issue for you, you might find alexander technique or feldenkrais useful, to help you find your own alignment.

Yup, I fully agree. Alexander technique is something I'd like to try, if I can find an instructor whose expertise I can trust in my small town.

 

[fischflosse]

Sorry fischflosse, all that sounds like glossy terms taken from polished commercials for home trainers or the like. None of these will help you on the dance floor! I felt so comfortable with my range of dissociation, and it never threw me out of axis. Finally I got severe problems with my knees. You cannot work on these items on your own! I fooled myself. It took several years and a former ballerina to understand how my body evaded the pressure and compensated what he didnt want to do. So what I mean is: you need professional help and an independent eye.

Actually, I read a lot to come up with these hypotheses, I didn't just flip through a glossy magazine or a gym catalogue. I did research into who were the most respected and established strength and conditioning coaches in the fitness industry and I read their blogs. These are people that train elite athletes as well as everyday folk and whose methods are based on research, not bro science. I follow forums where people discuss these things so I can get more than one opinion. In short, I stand behind my speculations, even though I need "glossy" anatomic terms to articulate them and I don't have a formal medical/exercise science background.

These arent new approaches and I appreciate their current popularity. Pilates f.i. was a martial arts trainer for policemen in my hometown, 90 yrs ago. His ability to analyze the body motion in detail became that famous that he was asked for a special training program for ballet dancers. For me there is nothing better around than his concept. But it is complicated and you need the ability to read and to understand. And if you want to do some strenght training (dont know why at all) use Pilates machines for ballet dancers. Gyrotonic machines will work as well.

"For ballet dancers" is the key term here, I think. I'm general population, no dancing background. First of all, I don't think this was designed for me, at least at my current level of fitness. Secondly, I've tried Pilates and I have a hard time stabilizing the lower back and usually end up with lower back pain.

Why would you want strength training? Because dancing is a complicated movement pattern. Movement is realized through muscles. It's not magical "energy from your core, shooting down through your foot into the floor". The stronger the muscle, the more stable, precise and efficient your movement is.

 

[toothlesstiger]

You seem to have your own agenda here, dismissing approaches that are commonly used with great success by dancers.

If you don't like the classes and instructors you have found so far, that doesn't invalidate the approach, any more than finding a dance instructor who doesn't match your learning style doesn't mean you can't learn dance.

DW hates any sort of repetitive exercise. Running, strength training, yoga, they are not for her, dance is her exercise. And that's fine by me, the best exercise is the one you will actually do. Me, when I had time, I enjoyed running, heavy lifting, I taught myself yoga and got great benefit from it. Yet I know many people that can only bring themselves to engage in these activities if they have an instructor driving them.

I know some competitive dancers that swear by some of those purely calisthenic based high-intensity training programs. I think I would be puking if I tried them.

And please let's not dismiss ballet training. If professional athletes can benefit from it, I think a new Tango dancer can benefit. Not saying it's for you, but please don't dismiss it out of hand.

 

[fischflosse]

You seem to have your own agenda here, dismissing approaches that are commonly used with great success by dancers.
....
And please let's not dismiss ballet training. If professional athletes can benefit from it, I think a new Tango dancer can benefit. Not saying it's for you, but please don't dismiss it out of hand.

Wow, I'm coming across very differently from what my original intentions were (thanks for pointing that out!) and for that I apologize.

I most definitely do not want to dismiss ballet training. I wrote that I'm reading up on ballet training to get some ideas on foot and ankle strengthening. What I said in the previous post was that I thought Pilates was "not for me," because I am not at the level of fitness of a ballet dancer or presumably a different dancer that has benefited from Pilates. I'm not against Pilates, yoga, and running, I'm against people recommending them indiscriminately to everyone, without any sort of caveats.

I also don't want to dismiss suggestions from people. I am trying to move the conversation to a more specific level. I've been dancing for a while, so I've heard a lot of these suggestions and tried most of them. Now I'd like to understand the why's. Why is yoga helping people and what exactly about yoga is it that they are benefiting from (ok, stretching, but what exactly is it important to stretch?). What muscles is Pilates strengthening that are helping dancers, so I can target those muscles in a different way that perhaps won't hurt my lower back (sure, the "core", but what exactly does that mean?). I guess I'm curious if people have dug into this.

 

[fischflosse]

PS - If I'm barking up the wrong tree, please everyone let me know! I think it's ok to just say "here we'll just have to agree to disagree". I think tango practice + general strength training is important, others think just practicing tango is enough and strength comes along in due time. I can have a conversation about why I think it's important for me to do general strength training as well as tango-specific practice, but I can't argue against "tango's easy, you don't need strength for that" or "just do tango, you'll get stronger the more you practice". That doesn't seem like a discussion, it seems like "yes it is - no it isn't" .

As for how specifically to go about the general conditioning program, I would like a discussion, not just "do yoga" or "do pilates". I know some people will say I'm splitting hairs and it may be true, I may be overthinking. But I really want to understand what I'm doing to my body instead of just doing what others have done and hoping for the best. Will an instructor be crucial to reach that understand? Certainly, but there is not a lot of option where I live at the moment. So for lack of a teacher, I am trying to be self-taught.