POLL: are solo followers encouraged / allowed / discouraged/ not allowed to take classes / workshops without a partner?

[lucia_l]

I bring this up because I think it is the what causes the phenomenon you described, where leaders want more practice (leader hell) that followers aren't especially interested in (waiting for leaders to get through hell), as well as the perception that men need more classes-- because, in the phase of leader hell, they absolutely do.

Honestly, part of follower hell is that leaders often lose interest in practicing (or more specifically learning) a particular thing when they are now doing it right. They want to move on. They think the follower got practice or learning during that period. And they think since the follow "ended up" in the right place, we "know" the step. Why shouldn't we move on to the new step? The follow knows that the whole thing is still uncomfortable (and may bitch. Ideally, you say, "let's discuss this with our teacher". Then the teacher explains the problems-- often with the lead.)

Anyway, what happens to the two intermediate partners is the lead then don't want to stand around continuuing to do it "now that we know it!" To some extent the entire practice period was "UN-practice" for the follow. Because all she did was bumble around trying to do her memorized part while mostly actively ignoring the "signals" that were intended as a lead! That's what she is not supposed to do!

Am-Am competition can be a cure for this attitude for the guys because they can see we don't know it well enough to win. Also, they might grasp that doing a smaller number of "moves" well will get more points. But many intermediate guys really, really have a fascination of accumulating more and more and more "patterns". On the social floor, tons of "patterns" within the ones bad frame, timing, direction is unclear is "follower hell". But it's not the one you are describing. In fact, intermediate follows dancing socially with leads in "leader hell" are also in a very agonizing type of "follower hell".

 

[fiesta0618]

Honestly, part of follower hell is that leaders often lose interest in practicing (or more specifically learning) a particular thing when they are now doing it right. They want to move on. They think the follower got practice or learning during that period. And they think since the follow "ended up" in the right place, we "know" the step. Why shouldn't we move on to the new step? The follow knows that the whole thing is still uncomfortable (and may bitch. Ideally, you say, "let's discuss this with our teacher". Then the teacher explains the problems-- often with the lead.)

Anyway, what happens to the two intermediate partners is the lead then don't want to stand around continuuing to do it "now that we know it!" To some extent the entire practice period was "UN-practice" for the follow. Because all she did was bumble around trying to do her memorized part while mostly actively ignoring the "signals" that were intended as a lead! That's what she is not supposed to do!

Am-Am competition can be a cure for this attitude for the guys because they can see we don't know it well enough to win. Also, they might grasp that doing a smaller number of "moves" well will get more points. But many intermediate guys really, really have a fascination of accumulating more and more and more "patterns". On the social floor, tons of "patterns" within the ones bad frame, timing, direction is unclear is "follower hell". But it's not the one you are describing. In fact, intermediate follows dancing socially with leads in "leader hell" are also in a very agonizing type of "follower hell".

Spot on in all respects.

The only thing I would say is that, IMO, you are describing one of the many issues within Leader Hell. *Everyone* ultimately suffers, not just the lead. The leader is mentioned in the term not because they are the only one struggling, but because the responsibility for 90% of the couple's pain falls on them at that point.

Pro-Am does have a massive advantage on that score. In addition to what you mention, you can get straight to follower's study without accumulating all the cruft and garbage and wasted time of traversing Leader Hell with an amateur. It's still hellish, with respect to the everything-at-once firehose of information, but at least you don't have years of uncorrected defensive habits to erase.

 

[David_In_CA]

My interpretation of Follower Hell for the swing dances was that at the beginning, learning how to "just follow" through non-advanced patterns requires to work, but the learning curve is not too steep. However, once you get past that, doing it with good quality of movement, injecting your own style, and having a voice in the dance without throwing spanners into the works is where it becomes really hard. (I'm still working on part A, myself).

 

[Brummbaer]

*Everyone* ultimately suffers, not just the lead.

I sort of agree. My wife and I got lucky with each other and learning together - but we've always been able to work together on any project. As I've said before: it's sometimes better if only two people suffer. We'd go home, practice, try to sort it out (how do I communicate that lead to you to do that move?), consult the teacher.

You can get straight to follower's study without accumulating all the cruft and garbage and wasted time of traversing Leader Hell with an amateur.

Yes, but I don't think we're ready for that commitment to any dance when we first approach it as a recreational activity - but it does achieve results in other spheres of learning.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Of course, it's allowed, but it does not make sense.
You just won't dance with other people's partners.

In most of our classes and workshops people come without partners. It's rare to see a dedicated couple in classes or at workshops. Mind you, they do exist, but they are infrequent.

 

[tangoing]

In most of our classes and workshops people come without partners. It's rare to see a dedicated couple in classes or at workshops. Mind you, they do exist, but they are infrequent.

Classes yes, workshops I see dedicated couples being more and more common. I may actually bring a dedicated partner for future workshops too…the last few workshops I went solo I unfortunately had to pair with a rotating array of followers who didn’t have the best technique which meant I couldn’t even practice the workshops topics cleanly.

 

[pianistamediano]

Classes yes, workshops I see dedicated couples being more and more common. I may actually bring a dedicated partner for future workshops too…the last few workshops I went solo I unfortunately had to pair with a rotating array of followers who didn’t have the best technique which meant I couldn’t even practice the workshops topics cleanly.

Reason no. 1 why I rarely go to workshops without a dedicated partner unless they're private (in the sense that they aren't advertised publicly, only among those in the know, but ostensibly open to friends, or friends of friends, or friends of friends of friends...) and have a guarantee of a minimum level of competence.

I don't want to practise my skills at adapting to and compensating for a partner in class; I can get plenty of practice in that in milongas already.

 

[Bailango]

unless they're private (in the sense that they aren't advertised publicly, only among those in the know,

I am not aware of any private workshops. Looking at it from instructors point of view it defeats the purpose. They are attracting less people by keeping it private.

The local host of some visiting instructors will advertise workshop in advance with a cap on the number of people accepted to increase quality. Sometimes venue is a constrain as it can accommodate only a certain number. These are on first come first serve basis and sometimes they will only accept people registering and paying as partners. Perhaps to keep experience at higher level. Given that there could be two or three pairs of visiting instructors in the town any giving week, I see very few advertised for those registering jointly as partners.

The other challenge is finding someone whose level might be sufficient to be a workshop partner. Then the timing and fees need to work for them.

 

[itwillhappen]

Honestly, part of follower hell is that leaders often lose interest in practicing (or more specifically learning) a particular thing when they are now doing it right. They want to move on.

If leader and follower (or men and women?) have different interests, they'll probably have to talk to each other and find a compromise - if they want to dance together.

I don't see a right or wrong approach, and I don't know of any way to avoid the "leader hell" if you're willing to face the social floor and change partners.

On the social floor, tons of "patterns" within the ones bad frame, timing, direction is unclear is "follower hell". But it's not the one you are describing. In fact, intermediate follows dancing socially with leads in "leader hell" are also in a very agonizing type of "follower hell".

Followers can avoid this "hell" by finding suitable dance partners or taking private lessons. And they do so whenever they have the opportunity. The asymmetrical learning curves can pose significant challenges for couples.

 

[itwillhappen]

In most of our classes and workshops people come without partners. It's rare to see a dedicated couple in classes or at workshops. Mind you, they do exist, but they are infrequent.

There can certainly be cultural differences. If I hadn't found a suitable partner before the beginners' class, the teacher would have assigned one. And the risk was far too high for me, considering the entire time of 10h.

 

[itwillhappen]

I am not aware of any private workshops. Looking at it from instructors point of view it defeats the purpose. They are attracting less people by keeping it private.

From the client's point of view, it may make sense to organize a private group and hire one or more teachers.

 

[opendoor]

From the client's point of view, it may make sense to organize a private group and hire one or more teachers.

It's not so different from what I did: renting a practice space for two hours a week and then experimenting with friends. Pedagogically speaking, this is more effective because you can teach each other. What kind of "tango teacher" nowadays still is didactically competent?

 

[pianistamediano]

I am not aware of any private workshops. Looking at it from instructors point of view it defeats the purpose. They are attracting less people by keeping it private.

Because you're not in any "groups" who do this kind of thing (thankfully?), and you have a very narrow mind of teachers — numbers alone (i.e. profit) don't have to be the only reason.

You're right in that a cap on numbers is good for increasing the minimum time spent by the teacher with each couple, but that is no guarantee of quality of workshop partners. I think that requires a minimum level of assessment and scrutinization which plenty would consider invasive, not to mention ego-bursting, and so they would rather not try to participate in the first place.

 

[lucia_l]

Followers can avoid this "hell" by finding suitable dance partners or taking private lessons. And they do so whenever they have the opportunity. The asymmetrical learning curves can pose significant challenges for couples.

Finding suitable partners is a very real challenge. But this is one reason private lessons are popular.

 

[tangoing]

I am not aware of any private workshops. Looking at it from instructors point of view it defeats the purpose. They are attracting less people by keeping it private.

The local host of some visiting instructors will advertise workshop in advance with a cap on the number of people accepted to increase quality. Sometimes venue is a constrain as it can accommodate only a certain number. These are on first come first serve basis and sometimes they will only accept people registering and paying as partners. Perhaps to keep experience at higher level. Given that there could be two or three pairs of visiting instructors in the town any giving week, I see very few advertised for those registering jointly as partners.

The other challenge is finding someone whose level might be sufficient to be a workshop partner. Then the timing and fees need to work for them.

There are some in nyc, a number of instructors are still quite in tune with the community (constantly going to practicas/milongas), so they have a good feel of the level of a lot of dancers so they can invite certain students + dancers similar to the students’ level to private workshops.
That way they can control the level of the class, the size, and focus on the actual topic instead of constantly adjusting for those factors.