POLL: are solo followers encouraged / allowed / discouraged/ not allowed to take classes / workshops without a partner?

[Rabbit]

Sure.

But she can't suddenly do a volcada.

The follower CAN do an unled volcada in response to a leader back step simply by leaning forward instead of stepping. It's rare as she has to really trust the leader

in most other situations it would probably feel like it involves unnatural movements but that's just because of how the move works.

 

[Brummbaer]

It's rare as she has to really trust the leader

I'd say unled volcadas, colgadas, and extreme calesitas, are reckless even if you absolutely trusted the leader as they might be unprepared (but it's better to end up on top). Better to err on the side of caution. If uncertain it can be turned into something else - in which case the couple should find some means to 'rescue' the situation.

As you say:

that's just because of how the move works.

You might also avoid anything with pivots (e.g. giro, ocho), even if led, when on rough ground without an appropriate interface.

 

[tangoing]

There’s also a style where both dancers are somewhat co-leading or at the very least the follower is heavily influencing the lead and isn’t just passively following.
This is rare though and won’t happen with random dancers.

 

[Miradamiranda]

Lead, by definition, always is clear; there's no room for interpretation. But the follower doesn't have to follow, because leading doesn't work by pushing, tugging, shoving, or physical inpact. It's only a language called projection (commencement). I only signal direction, distance, and timing two seconds in advance. The follower either executes or leaves it. Leading isn't physical. This is my philosophy, most tango dancers may differ.

The first part of this is classic ‘opendoor provocation’ The rest, I agree with.

A clear invitation from a lead most often invites a narrow range of interpretation that most often makes sense for the context. But she can absolutely interpret that invitation differently than what he intended. A big part of an experienced follower’s skills is to judge what interpretations are appropriate for the context.

If I feel my partner has a LOT of experience and improvisational skills, I might purposely throw in a surprise for fun to see what he does with it. But if it’s not sensitive or appropriate for the context, she is doing the equivalent of blabbering away and not listening to him. She is basically using him as a barre to show herself off with.
If he bullies her around, he is lecturing or holding a monologue and she is just following orders, or just nodding in agreement but not participating in the dialogue. There is a time and place for all variations of the above, but it gets annoying when there’s too much of one approach.

 

[TTanguero]

Sure.

But she can't suddenly do a volcada.

Of course not (other than in the theoretical fashion suggested by Rabbit). But you don't appear to be disagreeing with my point, only disagreeing with something that very much wasn't my point.

 

[Bailango]

I

The follower CAN do an unled volcada in response to a leader back step simply by leaning forward instead of stepping. It's rare as she has to really trust the leader

That’s why I question whether it falls under “can do”. There is a fear of loss of balance. It is more natural for followers who are used to or dance in shared axis to able to do unload volcada. For those that dance on their own axis, leaning in or forward has to be led.

in most other situations it would probably feel like it involves unnatural movements but that's just because of how the move works.

I am don’t lead volcadas because I can do well in the class but don’t have enough mileage to lead them in pista. In the class followers know to do their part. Hence it is easier. On the dance floor many followers don’t know their part. Yet I have seen leaders lead them into volcadas. Unless the leaders are using their right arm to pull them in, I don’t really know how they make it work with the followers than don’t know their part.

It is like leading the followers into the dark side cross. You may lead it with right, but you will see followers fight it thinking they are doing something incorrect and half way through take a back step with right instead of dark side cross.

 

[Bailango]

The first part of this is classic ‘opendoor provocation’ The rest, I agree with.

Totally agree. Sometimes he borders on gaslighting

A clear invitation from a lead most often invites a narrow range of interpretation that most often makes sense for the context.

Why only narrow? Or may be what you mean by narrow is different than what I interpret it as.

But she can absolutely interpret that invitation differently than what he intended.

True. And that can make it fun honestly. Take something given and make something different out of it. But experience it rarely.

If I feel my partner has a LOT of experience and improvisational skills, I might purposely throw in a surprise for fun to see what he does with it. But if it’s not sensitive or appropriate for the context, she is doing the equivalent of blabbering away and not listening to him. She is basically using him as a barre to show herself off with.

Along with the skill, I find it also depends on the personality of the dancer. Irrespective of skills, some dancers are like playing around. Since the surprise is not an accident but a deliberate action.

If he bullies her around, he is lecturing or holding a monologue and she is just following orders, or just nodding in agreement but not participating in the dialogue. There is a time and place for all variations of the above, but it gets annoying when there’s too much of one approach.

I have an opposite issue. Followers whose dancing is what I can best describe as monotonous. Irrespective of the rhythm or melody their steps has no texture. All their steps are the same and in the same gear. A leader can’t lead followers to color and texture their steps. To me it turns dance into very uninteresting when a follower has only one gear in how she steps.

 

[Brummbaer]

On the dance floor many followers don’t know their part.

I'd say that some moves have to be in the follower's vocabulary, or they need to be aware. That's simplistic and a generalisation; you might even get a dancer from another discipline who could easily be led to do a volcada/colgada.

Unless the leaders are using their right arm to pull them in

That is potentially nasty if the leader pulls close in the wrong place on the back Of course you can do something effective vertical in a close hold, but it's aiming towards a 'V' for off-axis. Support is needed, and the follower has to, effectively, 'plank', and to be allowed to do that. We then get to the differing shapes of the follower's leg sweep, and changes from a wrap to a volcada, or how about a triple volcada followed by calesita? How much the follower will accept to 'lean' depends on how much they trust the leader. If they feel 'unsafe' then it's reasonable for them to abort the move (by putting their foot on the floor to support their own weight).

I don’t really know how they make it work with the followers than don’t know their part.

Then don't. Other options are available! There are some larger followers who I wouldn't lead into a volcada or colgada. There are many beginners and novices where I wouldn't lead a volcada, but sometimes in a practica I've come across someone from another dance discipline who's just done one easily. You have to 'test' capabilities during a tanda. I learned volcadas leading a much taller male follower (one of our teachers). His aim was to demonstrate what I might have to support to lead my partner safely. The comments above are simplified! I'd just say it's the old maxim: Take some lessons!

 

[Brummbaer]

Followers whose dancing is what I can best describe as monotonous. Irrespective of the rhythm or melody their steps has no texture. All their steps are the same and in the same gear. A leader can’t lead followers to color and texture their steps.

First, a tanda should be 'fun', and it's up to the couple to do that irrespective of their shared vocabulary. I had a 'fun' tanda with a good dancer who purposely made some options difficult; why should the follower do all the work? (Because they can! And in high heels.). Sometimes AT dancers just take everything much too seriously. Other popular dance disciplines (ignoring competition!) are about having fun, or at least conveying 'fun'. Even dancing a sad feeling in tango is playing a role.

But consider Miguel Zotto's perspective:
However an excellent dancer you are as a man, even if you are able to dance with every woman, when you dance with a woman who can’t follow you have more responsibility. You must dance perfectly, which means you can’t relax, you can’t think about your posture, and you can’t rattle off a fine step: what is the use of being able to do everything if the woman can’t follow you?


And then: corridas! Certainly add some colour. But I think of Gerado Portalea's observation:
You have to dance the quiet parts. And the violins. Even when there are none there.
Listen to the music and interpret that together.

 

[Rabbit]

Of course not (other than in the theoretical fashion suggested by Rabbit).

(unled volcada)

It isn't theoretical. I do receive it rarely (from followers who know very well that I didn't lead one.)

 

[opendoor]

..unled volcada... theoretical. I do receive it rarely (from followers who know very well that I didn't lead one.

Ich would not call that a volcada anymore. Such things may happen if you move away from a follower who refuses to take a step. But thats called a drag, tirada, or whatever, but not a volcada. It may also happen if the couple already danced all the way before volcadized. I find my definition sharply delineates a volcada (back, front, side volvada) sharply enough from other things.

b) In the volcada, the follower has no choice but to tip over when the partner's upper body signals to stand still but simultaneously moves away from her with the lower level.

 

[Miradamiranda]

There are some larger followers who I wouldn't lead into a volcada or colgada. There are many beginners and novices where I wouldn't lead a volcada, but sometimes in a practica I've come across someone from another dance discipline who's just done one easily. You have to 'test' capabilities during a tanda. I learned volcadas leading a much taller male follower (one of our teachers). His aim was to demonstrate what I might have to support to lead my partner safely. The comments above are simplified! I'd just say it's the old maxim: Take some lessons!

Just this weekend I was dancing with a significantly shorter than me guy with a stocky or muscular build. I hadn’t danced with him for a year and I hadn’t realized how much progress he had made. He twice led me into volcadas that I insecurely botched due to lack of trust. It wasn’t his fault. After the tanda I complemented him and apologized and said next time I know I can have more trust.
Right afterwards I danced with another short guy but this guy has a much skinnier and frail build than the other. He led me into quite a few very deep volcadas executed perfectly. Trust and technique. Counterweight matters but it’s not everything.

 

[Miradamiranda]

Some milongas it seems I’m almost only dancing with tall guys, some milongas I dance a lot with short guys. This weekend it was disproportionately with excellent short leads. Two of them led perfect moderate colgadas also. It seems like it’s really noticed when I’m dancing with short guys. Some might be thinking it looks funny but not when I’m dancing with short women. But considering how many further invites I get from other short guys right afterwards I gather it’s because they notice I’m not insecure with short guys and I really don’t mind the height difference, AND it looks like I’m enjoying the fun.
At bigger events, festivals, marathons etc, where I know nobody, I mostly only get invites from the tall guys. In fact there’s almost a segregation between tall and short. It’s possibly nothing other than with so many potential partners available, one can look for one’s ideal size range.
Getting back to the topic of interpreting a lead, size is not irrelevant, I find. My posture with smaller guys is likely more upright so that I don’t pull him/her off balance, and this then tends to make the embrace take a more open direction, which then leaves more space for extra little fun playful things to throw into the mix as a follower. The taller guys tend to pull me in closer because of height compatibility. Not that they’d necessarily dance more traditionally and expect me to simply interpret with only a narrow window of possibilities, but maybe I am subconsciously letting go and going with the flow a bit more because of the secure feeling of the embrace.

 

[Paja]

Sure.

But she can't suddenly do a volcada.

Question is what should motivate follower to perform suddenly volcada, try they test spine health of dancers? Volcada's and colgadas are off-axe figures for followers. For both leader has to be aware of this and not only lead, but react properly. What concerns me is eagerness of begginers for such things like colgadas, back sacadas, high boleos and ganchos. OMG why, if they are not able to do proper step back?

 

[Rabbit]

Ich would not call that a volcada anymore. Such things may happen if you move away from a follower who refuses to take a step. But thats called a drag, tirada, or whatever, but not a volcada. It may also happen if the couple already danced all the way before volcadized. I find my definition sharply delineates a volcada (back, front, side volvada) sharply enough from other things.

no drag happens, the follower's base foot does not move, she just activates her core and leans forward in the same way as a led volcada, which triggers my reaction to counterbalance it.