Pressure in open embrace with pivots

...why is it that when dancing in close embrace and I am following leads from the chest, some men think they need to push with their hands as well?

I find it a bit offputting when I have to be applying pressure with my right hand the whole time when it is entirely surplas to requirements.

Do a lot of leaders think that they are supposed to be using their arms to lead when their chest is supplying me with all the information I need?

In my teaching of CE I have often tried to convey that the entire lead is in the chest, and I have seen my owns students fail to get this idea. I think some men don't get the idea that they also must do any step that they lead. They seem to want to lead steps the way a puppeteer would lead a marionette, independently from themselves.

My pet peeve is when leaders lead a forward ocho to the followers R by pressing their elbow into her L side. I consider that just plain rude, but I see it done all the time.
 
A friend took a private lesson at the recent Taboe Camp, focussing on giving and receiving pressure through the hand when pivoting - giros, ochos etc.
Is there a place for (varying) pressure on the open hand, so providing (extra) impetus to the follower for pivots?

I've been through probably well over a dozen books on dance. Most have sections on Leading and Following. Almost ALL of them use the terms "push" and "pull" . They ALL qualify their use of the terms to say, in one fashion or another, this does not mean "shove" or "yank".
Some of these texts, all of which are in English, include tango, and it is sometimes described as Argentine Tango.
Accepting that AT is so different than other dances that the basics don't apply would be a mistake, I think. There is plenty of material that has convinced me that the posture, the walk, etc, are common elements that have been taught for decades and perhaps as long as there has been dancing between partners in large towns where different classes of people developed.
You may perhaps have learned that the woman supplies the energy to rotate the man in the giro/molinete. If you accept this, you may want to ask yourself how she moves the man and what you want to call that action, if not pull, push, or some synonym; ditto for the calesita, only more so.
Single axis turns, I think, have a similar dynamic to that of the calesita and giro.
There is a similar exchange, or giving of energy, in producing a boleo, if you accept that it is something that isn't done as an adornment.
With "pivots" we get into more of a gray area.
A clarification of the term might be helpful.
But then the whole idea of not whether, but how much energy we exchange with our partner is very much a sliding scale as far preferences.
 
But then the whole idea of not whether, but how much energy we exchange with our partner is very much a sliding scale as far preferences.
This ^
:cheers:

As far as I'm concerned, you nailed it. I think that far too often, people try to use absolutes in describing and defining many of the things in tango. IMO, how well people can adapt to and accommodate other preferences is a key to how well you can dance with lots of different people, socially.
 
ETA: The idea that open=pushing and pulling is another one of those bizarre fallacies like not being able to feel where a partner's weight is in open embrace.
Technically, it's tension / compression, rather than pushing / pulling. And it's clearly essential to use these in (for example) colgadas or soltadas. It can accentuate movements and add style.

I'm just concerned that this could be mis-interpreted by beginner / improvers as "push / pull your partner with your left arm"...
 
Actually, yes. But it's not a hard and fast rule because people have different opinions on it. Note that I have allowed women to move me without any assist.
And how about the calesita? Would anyone care to argue that the woman turns herself?
 
I do not, and you?
I've certainly heard some teachers who say that the follower provides the "energy" for the mollinette. However, the man still leads the turn. In my experience, most followers do not actually do this, but some will. This has more relevance if you pivot (on one foot) while leading the mollinette.

As I'm not going to change the follower's philosophy on the mollinette in the middle of a tanda, I simply adapt to (or accommodate) what she is doing (assuming I'm able to figure it out).

(and I suspect that at the same time, she could be adapting to some of the stuff that I am doing).
 
Would someone care to calculate the amount of energy required to rotate a man or one his/her axis?
Let's see: weight, fiction of the standing foot, amount of leverage...
Where's my copy of Physics and the Art of Dance?

As an aside here, I came across a paper this last week where someone calculated that in one cowboy dance there was a force of 6.6 Gs generated in one turn! This led him to conclude, though, that the account he analyzed was not to be taken literally.
 
I have a question that is related,

why is it that when dancing in close embrace and I am following leads from the chest, some men think they need to push with their hands as well?
There's a technical answer to that. They're not very good leads.

:D
 
In my teaching of CE I have often tried to convey that the entire lead is in the chest, and I have seen my owns students fail to get this idea.
I'm doing a class on Sunday on this - one of the reasons I started this thread. In close embrace, I think I'll get them to do a "no-arms" session to emphasize the fact that there's no need for them.

In open, I'm considering asking them to do a "visual lead" only, but that might be a little harsh, as they've only just started.

Decisions decision...
 
Since you are still deciding...
I know some folks like the visual lead thing. If you want to talk about people taking away the wrong message, though, I would put this one at the top of the list.
It does not encourage people to learn to "Feel" a lead, or the response to it, their partner's momentum, axis, etc.
 
Since you are still deciding...
I know some folks like the visual lead thing. If you want to talk about people taking away the wrong message, though, I would put this one at the top of the list.
It does not encourage people to learn to "Feel" a lead, or the response to it, their partner's momentum, axis, etc.
Yeah... I think I'll leave that one out.

I like the "no hands" one though, so that's staying :)
 
Technically, it's tension / compression, rather than pushing / pulling. And it's clearly essential to use these in (for example) colgadas or soltadas. It can accentuate movements and add style.

I'm just concerned that this could be mis-interpreted by beginner / improvers as "push / pull your partner with your left arm"...
You make the good point about it being tension and compression. That's what should be going on. Too often, though, pushing and pulling seems to happen.

But that sort of backs up what I was saying, or trying to say--that it's a fallacy that pushing and pulling happens in close embrace. Tension and compression...yes; pushing and pulling...no. Or perhaps I should say, it doesn't happen in close embrace done well. :rolleyes:
 
I'm doing a class on Sunday on this - one of the reasons I started this thread. In close embrace, I think I'll get them to do a "no-arms" session to emphasize the fact that there's no need for them.

In open, I'm considering asking them to do a "visual lead" only, but that might be a little harsh, as they've only just started.

Decisions decision...
I have found sessions of dancing with my hands behind my back or down at my side (my preference) to be extremely useful in learning to fine tune my feel of the lead, and to maintain even pressure through a close embrace connection. (Without that solid connection molinetes become verrrry interesting! LOL.)

Generally I think visual lead only is a very useful exercise, but I'm not sure how useful it would be with beginners. One workshop I took (geared towards beginners) started off with pairing people up, and having people take turns trying to get past one another. It's an interesting exercise in focusing your attention on the other person, staying in front of them and keeping your balance. Perhaps you could start out with something like that to convey the idea, since they may not know and understand enough about how to actually lead and follow various things.
 
...In open, I'm considering asking them to do a "visual lead" only, but that might be a little harsh, as they've only just started.

I use to use that exercise to teach focused attention. Another exercise I use to use was leading/following only with leader's L and followers R hands, or leave those and dance only with the arm connection. I think it increases specific awareness.

Yes, they often get the wrong idea. I always try to be clear about what they should be learning, and what they should not be learning.
 

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